Bob McC
Living the life of Riley
What is this “change” you speak of and in what way is it beneficial to the UK?
Brexit: give me a positive effect... XI
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Sue Pertwee-Tyr
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I don't think there's anything 'obviously' about it. Some people vote in their short-term interest, some vote for a longer term self-interest. Some might consider their self-interest is bound up in the greater good, and vote against their short term self interest for a bigger benefit for the wider community. It's not as simple as your 'obviously' pretends it is. Which effectively invalidates the subsequent thought that springs from that notion.
Who mentioned anything about being beneficial to the UK?
If the Scots get independence as a result, won't the nationalists up there see that as beneficial?
Actually, no, I'm getting it all wrong!
Of course, you remember when Leave voters were talking about "Breaking Point" and "Getting our Country Back" and promising a better economic future post Brexit, it was not about self interest but an act of noble self sacrifice. They were voting "consciously against their own self interest" out of a sense of "a more ephemeral range of variant principles". It wasn't at all about the £350M on the bus or immigrants swamping the NHS and schools.
They KNEW it was going to result in an economic hit, and they did it anyway out of self sacrifice.
Whereas those naughty Remain voters who are now pointing out the shortcomings of Brexit are just angry at having to give up their second homes in Europe. Because they had them, those 16M Remain voters, all of them. Same as they had Polish servants working below min wage. Just selfish self interest and anyone pointing out a "Brexit loss" is just running the country down out of self-interest.
How wrong I was to imagine that the people of Boston I heard saying "We want these f****g Polish c***s out of our country" were being racist, when it was just a noble act of self sacrifice, based on the fact that *they* wanted to pick their own cabbages, regardless of the cost.
Of course, you remember when Leave voters were talking about "Breaking Point" and "Getting our Country Back" and promising a better economic future post Brexit, it was not about self interest but an act of noble self sacrifice. They were voting "consciously against their own self interest" out of a sense of "a more ephemeral range of variant principles". It wasn't at all about the £350M on the bus or immigrants swamping the NHS and schools.
They KNEW it was going to result in an economic hit, and they did it anyway out of self sacrifice.
Whereas those naughty Remain voters who are now pointing out the shortcomings of Brexit are just angry at having to give up their second homes in Europe. Because they had them, those 16M Remain voters, all of them. Same as they had Polish servants working below min wage. Just selfish self interest and anyone pointing out a "Brexit loss" is just running the country down out of self-interest.
How wrong I was to imagine that the people of Boston I heard saying "We want these f****g Polish c***s out of our country" were being racist, when it was just a noble act of self sacrifice, based on the fact that *they* wanted to pick their own cabbages, regardless of the cost.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
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If we acknowledge Kabayiri's point about poor Northern voters wanting change, this is consistent with Cummings' philosophy of 'move fast and break things'. Basically, he wanted to break the system, allegedly to bring about change, and he targeted people who would 'move fast' (ie, without thinking) and do that breaking for him. Well, he got what he wanted, it's well and truly broken now. Not sure the patsies who brought it about for him will reap the benefits of change, though.
You telling me that nobody in "the North" enjoyed a quick flight out of Leeds-Brad, Teeside or Donny for a few days in Malaga off peak? Nonsense. Jet 2 is *based* out of LBA, I have had several cheap flights out of there to places like Majorca. Trust me, not many of my fellow passengers were "of a certain standing".
I don't know where you get your view of "the North" from, but do come over to Leeds sometime. We don't walk round with whippets any more or heat our homes with coal, and rationing ended many years ago.
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
'More likely' is not the same as 'all'.
I am sure we will still be able to get our £50 flight, post covid, although Customs are likely to be bloody for a while. Not many of us were ever in a position to buy a house there though, or work there. Those that can and wish to will still be able to manage, it just won't be quite as seemless.
I'm afraid that I maintain that the vote to remain was often premeditated upon self-interest, and at no point did I state that leavers were 'noble altruists'.
The hardest case to make at the moment is that we weren't better off in. The problem (or perhaps the greatest of many problems) with the EU is that membership of the sensible bit is conditional upon signing up to the increasingly assertive and patently unpleasant political bit.
I am sure we will still be able to get our £50 flight, post covid, although Customs are likely to be bloody for a while. Not many of us were ever in a position to buy a house there though, or work there. Those that can and wish to will still be able to manage, it just won't be quite as seemless.
I'm afraid that I maintain that the vote to remain was often premeditated upon self-interest, and at no point did I state that leavers were 'noble altruists'.
The hardest case to make at the moment is that we weren't better off in. The problem (or perhaps the greatest of many problems) with the EU is that membership of the sensible bit is conditional upon signing up to the increasingly assertive and patently unpleasant political bit.
The politicians will always disappoint. Regardless of the vote, the post vote implementation phase has gone worse than most could imagine.
It's not Northern voters as such. It's the point that the recent changes in the UK have not been felt evenly. The (arguably necessary) cuts to Local Authority budgets which ran for years before the Brexit vote were not even. I contend that there is an obvious development as to why some would seek change more than others.
Cummings and a few others were smart enough to spot this. I cannot fathom why Cameron couldn't spot it too, even with all the political machinery behind him.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
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Can you explain why the local government budget cuts were 'arguably necessary' and, if so, why they weren't applied consistently?
Only I'd agree with you that the unfair allocation of the lion's share of the budget to the wealthy South East is a structural problem for the UK (which isn't fixed by Brexit, but hey), but I'm firstly slightly sceptical that, say, local authorities who are charged with, among other things, funding social care and social services 'arguably' needed their budgets cut in the absence of any national social care provision in its stead.
Only I'd agree with you that the unfair allocation of the lion's share of the budget to the wealthy South East is a structural problem for the UK (which isn't fixed by Brexit, but hey), but I'm firstly slightly sceptical that, say, local authorities who are charged with, among other things, funding social care and social services 'arguably' needed their budgets cut in the absence of any national social care provision in its stead.
awkwardbydesign
Officially Awesome
That was a specific question for a specific poster. I wasn't referring to the democratic content of our system.
Oh yes you did.
What is "consciously against their own self interest" if not altruism? It's the definition of the word.
NeilR
pfm Member
Does having a wife from an EU country count as self interest?
If we phrase these things as all migrants or no migrants, then we just feed the extreme perspectives of UK politics.
There was a school of thought pushed by the EU (via FOM) that unrestricted movement of people in their millions was a freedom.
Well, the realities are that some towns are better prepared to cope with the impacts of population change than others. Local rents going up is just one aspect, and for some it will be a bigger deal than others. It's an "I" perspective rather than "we".
I think you manage change to avoid the harsher impacts, and this is where the smarter EU countries understood this better than Blair and his cohorts.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
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Sorry, I don't follow the basis for your challenge here? The 'specific point' you replied to was about the 'popular vote' going to pro-Remain parties, and was in response to Colin Barron's point that the 2019 GE was in effect 'confirming' the outcome of the referendum. The 'popular vote' argument was essentially refuting that. You then commented 'Have you not yet worked out our voting system?' which is, surely, in the context of this exchange a comment about whether our GE system is democratic. I was responding to what was implied by your comment.
awkwardbydesign
Officially Awesome
I am now retired, I won't be better off due to Brexit, in fact I'm pretty sure I will be worse off. So yes, I voted for other people's futures, not my own. But strangely, that's how parents and grandparents sometimes act. Go figure.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
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It's not a school of thought, it's a fact.
awkwardbydesign
Officially Awesome
You are over thinking my post. And it wasn't in response to Colin Barron's post.
I disagree.
If it was an universally accepted fact, it would be adopted across the globe.
Billions of people operate under restricted regimes.
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