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Should there be a consequence for vaccine refusers?

windhoek said:
I obviously missed that as I saw a lot of rhetoric and not a lot of substance. I'll go back and have a look.

EDIT: I had a look and I don't see any specific points or questions. Feel free to repost, or PM me.
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from post # 126 - I asked

“I would like to know of all those proposing to refuse the vaccine, which of you know anyone who has died as a result of Covid-19?

Family or friends?

I would be genuinely interested.”
 
Big Tabs said:
from post # 126 - I asked

“I would like to know of all those proposing to refuse the vaccine, which of you know anyone who has died as a result of Covid-19?

Family or friends?

I would be genuinely interested.”
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None of my friends or family has died from covid. A couple of my friends have caught it and one now has long covid, but none has died.

EDIT: I'm going to be leaving for work shortly and will be off-grid for the next 24+ hours so I won't be able to respond to any replies. If it's all the same with you - and for everyone else involved in this part of the thread - perhaps we can leave things where they are and go back to having simple cable wars and what not :)
 
Yes, a childhood friends Dad died after getting it in a care home. Also a colleague of mine was in intensive care just after Xmas and nearly died, thankfully now in recovery.
 
Big Tabs said:
Have I broken any pfm rules? If so, report the post.

I find the concept of refusing a vaccine offensive in the extreme.

My daughter is caring for people who are dying from covid-19 on a daily basis. Death every day at your place of work.
What you perceive as aggression and rudeness is more incredulity and despair at the lack of common sense and care for society as a whole.
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Tabs, I won’t fight with you, because generally I like what I see of you and I reckon we could easily be friends, and I’m also cutting you some slack because of the cognitive stuff, and obviously because your personal circumstances mean this is all a bit raw for you. But there’s been a bit of a pile on, and it’s not really conducive to what could be an important and interesting conversation. I’d just like a bit more self restraint in expressing what are obviously strongly held views. It can be done without getting too personal.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Tabs, I won’t fight with you, because generally I like what I see of you and I reckon we could easily be friends, and I’m also cutting you some slack because of the cognitive stuff, and obviously because your personal circumstances mean this is all a bit raw for you. But there’s been a bit of a pile on, and it’s not really conducive to what could be an important and interesting conversation. I’d just like a bit more self restraint in expressing what are obviously strongly held views. It can be done without getting too personal.
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Where is the personal stuff?

Also, if someone expresses views contrary to widely held views with little or no justification, what do you expect?

The ‘pile on,’ as you term it is a reflection of a contrary position expressed, I guess it reflects that Good Society that I am rather keen on.
 
windhoek said:
None of my friends or family has died from covid. A couple of my friends have caught it and one now has long covid, but none has died.

EDIT: I'm going to be leaving for work shortly and will be off-grid for the next 24+ hours so I won't be able to respond to any replies. If it's all the same with you - and for everyone else involved in this part of the thread - perhaps we can leave things where they are and go back to having simple cable wars and what not :)
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I don’t get involved with discussing cables.

But should there be consequences for vaccine refusers?

You think not.

I think different.

There, all sorted.

:)
 
Big Tabs said:
I don’t get involved with discussing cables.

But should there be consequences for vaccine refusers?

You think not.

I think different.

There, all sorted.

:)
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Me neither - cable controversy is a whole different ball game!

That's a squaring-off of our respective positions I can respect and leave at that :)
 
My first thought about those refusing a vaccination was ' well it's their funeral', possibly the ultimately consequence.
But then I thought about the continued pressure on the NHS, the living hell that the staff are in, the delays in treatment for just about everything else we need the NHS for and that we must do something to persuade those people.
IMO most of them are living in mistrust and ignorance and the only option we have is education and more education. That is coming from the good people in those communities but it will take time. Let's hope it is quick enough.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
This thread took a disappointing and unedifying turn, a few pages back. @windhoek my sympathies, and good on you for your measured response to some pretty unpleasant provocation.

I think there is a material and fundamental difference between the antivaxx nut jobs, and people with a sincere ethical objection to the vaccine. And the numbers of the latter are probably small enough not to matter. For reasons expressed up thread, I think that objection is a little misguided, but I respect the obvious thought and sincerity that has gone into it. I wonder if the relative newness of your Veganism means you are trying to navigate difficult roads, and others have already laid out a decent path. What does the Vegan Society have to say about vaccines and drugs?

For the rest, how about laying off Windhoek? He is a decent and valued member here and his contributions are invariably worthwhile. If you can't argue your position without aggression and rudeness, maybe keep it to yourself?
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Well said. Some of the comments on this thread almost make me sympathise with far-right libertarian scumbags like Toby Young.
 
My biggest concern would be the virus continually rumbling along in the background within the (e.g.) 30% of the population unprotected.

Every division is an opportunity for a new strain to appear and maybe one day a really bad version will evolve. Hopefully when this happens

we'll be able to simply tweak the annual vaccination but we don't know yet. With luck future mutations will be relatively benign.
 
Well I certainly wasn't expecting the thread to go in the direction it did and I put it out as a discussion rather than my view although I do have concerns about refusers and the impact thereof. I am not sure whether this put me on the 'vile' list of a certain poster. One of my colleagues has refused a jab despite being in a face to face role but he and his partner have also refused to have their two children vaccinated. I have not felt it appropriate to pry but I gained the impression it was on religious grounds. An adult can make a decision about their own health rightly or wrongly but a child doesn't have that ability as a baby and toddler and I think vaccinations for children should be compulsory unless there are underlying health reasons why not.
 
gintonic said:
strikes me non-vax are the same as anti-vax, but are hiding their angst driven fevered brow behind some hipster vegan almond milk latte nonsense. In reality they are the same; selfish, self-centred and deluded morons.
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That really made me laugh ! The ones I know are practically the complete opposite and certainly carnivores to the core ! Deluded ? Well I'd say miss-guided but it's a personal choice and they're not out there faking videos of hospital waiting rooms as anti-vaxers have been known to do; totally different beasts.

I guess the consequences for no-vaxers if that they'll be more careful to socially distance, wear masks, and limit journeys to essential ones only, but then we all should do that, vaccinated or not.

CHE
 
It's clearly a complex moral/political question.

Refusing to have a vaccination can have serious consequences, not just for the refuser, but for his/her family and the wider community. In a way, it's akin to smoking; we haven't made smoking illegal, but have taken steps to reduce the impact of an individual's smoking on the wider community by banning smoking in pubs, on public transport, and in other enclosed places. I see no reason why the risks caused by those who choose not to be vaccinated should not be mitigated in similar ways. But by the same token, we don't refuse medical treatment to those who damage their health by smoking, and I don't think we should refuse medical treatment to vaccine refuseniks (or to anyone else, for that matter).

An even thornier issue arises for those, such as health and care workers, whose work involves contact with vulnerable people. I'm not sure how one could go about balancing individuals' choices with the risk to other individuals' health and life, short of making vaccination a condition of employment.
 
simon g said:
One is not related to the other; there is no 'rule' about having a vaccination. It's a personal choice, a choice with consequences. It's not about following 'rules', as there is no 'rule' on this specific issue, i.e. having a vaccination. If you want to talk about making a vaccination compulsory, then that's a very different proposition.
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Good post Simon and fair play, I stand down as I hadn’t realised that. My personal view is that it should be enforced and there should be consequences but if it’s purely voluntary then no there should not be consequences.

“Vaccine nazis” -crikey Bob, sensationalism doesn’t make or a break a point well made, that should stand on its own merits. Like Simon’s.
 
I really don't think you can criticise people for scepticism regarding taking a vaccine that's been rolled out in a matter of months without years of proper testing.
Taking a gamble either way, with the vaccination probably the safer option.
 
White Zombie said:
I really don't think you can criticise people for scepticism regarding taking a vaccine that's been rolled out in a matter of months without years of proper testing.
Taking a gamble either way, with the vaccination probably the safer option.
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I think you very much can criticise people for being sceptical about 'proper testing', but then not bothering to find out the facts for themselves.
 
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