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Should there be a consequence for vaccine refusers?

Bob McC said:
What do the vaccine nazis on here propose as to how those who cannot be vaccinated for medical Reasons should be treated?
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I agree that there needs to an exception, but I'm fine with employers, schools, airlines, hotels, concert venues, bars, restaurants, and public transit requiring either proof of vaccination or proof of a legitimate exemption. I think the $100(ish) bribe is also a good idea - ideally employers would step up for this - it will sway a lot of waverers.

I'd also encourage the continues publication of statistics of the number of folks hospitalized, in the ICU, and dead from COVID, and draw attention to the relative proportions who are vaccinated and unvaccinated. It might persuade some of the waverers that it's worth being vaccinated. We should start to see a clear pattern that the vast majority of those hospitalized are unvaccinated.

There will remain a hard core of anti vaxers, but I think that will be a pretty small number.
 
Dinovector said:
I probably do come over as insensitive, how was that person hit by a train? Trespassing on the railway, not really a sensible thing to do, an act that probably had a greater affect on the mental health of the poor train driver who hit the person or the poor sods who had to deal with the mess, now those people I do feel sorry for. You did say hit by a train not threw them self under one
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The information on the Station Displays and Announcements will say "Person hit by Train"

An increasing number of Press Releases suggest that the individuals appeared to take their own lives.

As regards your comment about the Mental Health of those involved in these incidents, all are of equal importance. That goes without saying really, doesn't it?
 
PhilofCas said:
(Only this morning, a friend down the road (he works at a large local school) says he’s not having the vaccine, simply saying he’ll take his chances. Later on in the conversation he said maybe in a couple of years he’d have it once he knew it was safe. I think he’s misguided, but, like a lot of things in life, it’s up to individuals what they do, or do not do with their lives).
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I have a friend who thinks similarly. I told him that, between the various trials, there's tens of thousands of people who've had the shot for six months or more. By the time it reaches our age groups (50s) there will be millions who've been vaccinated for > 3 months, so any safety issues should have come to light by then.

Personally I signed up for the trials - it seemed the right thing to do since I've never had to fight in a war or do a dangerous job. Apparently they were oversubscribed with white men in their 50s, so I didn't get enrolled in a trial - kind of wish I had.
 
Rob998 said:
Anti vaxxers alert us to their nutjobbery by being vocal gobshites. The others hide it by staying quiet about it and acting outwardly normal, like infiltration Terminators.
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could be. strikes me non-vax are the same as anti-vax, but are hiding their angst driven fevered brow behind some hipster vegan almond milk latte nonsense.

In reality they are the same; selfish, self-centred and deluded morons.
 
Should there be a consequence for vaccine refusers?

droodzilla said:
Death. One way or another.
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Unfortunately it is the effect on the rest of the population of refusing vaccines that is the main issue for me.

If all folk who refuse the vaccine can be isolated from the rest of the population, then the Refuseniks are welcome to refuse the vaccine.

That is not going to happen though.

Selfish and vile behaviour, but there is no law against it.





There is a law about wearing a seatbelt, I understand that saves many lives.

Smoking is less socially attractive nowadays, there are laws that help reinforce the push to reduce smoking.

The problem with the selfish people who intend to refuse a vaccine that will be positive for themselves and society, is that they will be unidentifiable.

(Unlike Vegans who will let you know as soon as you meet them.)

I propose that if upon catching COVID-19 (SARS-CoV-2) that death would be a 100% certainty, the uptake of the vaccine would be less of a discussion topic.


I would like to know of all those proposing to refuse the vaccine, which of you know anyone who has died as a result of Covid-19?

Family or friends?

I would be genuinely interested.
 
Monitor Gold 10 said:
The information on the Station Displays and Announcements will say "Person hit by Train"

An increasing number of Press Releases suggest that the individuals appeared to take their own lives.

As regards your comment about the Mental Health of those involved in these incidents, all are of equal importance. That goes without saying really, doesn't it?
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I have "mental health" issues, PTSD (Falklands); I've spent a fair chunk of my life in the Fire service trying to help those who found themselves in peril. You will have to forgive me, or not as you will, it's of no consequence to me but I have little sympathy for those who take their lives willingly and less for those who knowingly endanger others. I have much respect for those who seek help
 
Dogberry said:
PETA statement
The goal of being vegan and advocating for animal rights should always be to bring about positive change for animals. As long as tests on animals are a legal requirement, refusing to take a medicine on ethical grounds will not help animals who have already been used in tests or spare any the same fate in the future.

What needs to happen is a change in the law so that animals are no longer required to suffer in tests, and you can most effectively bring this about by using your voice to speak out for animals in laboratories and supporting our work. To keep yourself and others as fit and healthy as possible – and allow you to continue advocating for animals – please follow the advice of your health-care provider on taking a medicine.
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Yes, that's my understanding: a variety of animals were tested (infected) against their will and killed in the process of bringing Covid-19 vaccinations to market; mice, rats, ferrets, pigs and monkeys. While the testing phase is over for some vaccines, it isn't necessarily for others - new vaccines may well be required for new variants of the virus. Considering that the vaccines were created in response to a pandemic, last year would have been the perfect time to skip animal testing altogether and trial out vaccines for humans only on humans. This obviously didn't happen and there's no indication that it's likely to happen anytime soon.

Moreover, it's not reasonable or obvious to infer from the PETA statement that since those animals are now dead that one might as well take the vaccine. That's like saying the cow's been milked now so I might as well drink some milk, or the calf is dead now so I might as well eat some meat. As a new vegan, I've got to start drawing lines somewhere and saying no to brand new vaccines that could have come to market quicker and ethically too had animal testing been skipped is where I've chosen to draw a line.
 
windhoek said:
Yes, that's my understanding: a variety of animals were tested (infected) against their will and killed in the process of bringing Covid-19 vaccinations to market; mice, rats, ferrets, pigs and monkeys. While the testing phase is over for some vaccines, it isn't necessarily for others - new vaccines may well be required for new variants of the virus. Considering that the vaccines were created in response to a pandemic, last year would have been the perfect time to skip animal testing altogether and trial out vaccines for humans only on humans. This obviously didn't happen and there's no indication that it's likely to happen anytime soon.

Moreover, it's not reasonable or obvious to infer from the PETA statement that since those animals are now dead that one might as well take the vaccine. That's like saying the cow's been milked now so I might as well drink some milk, or the calf is dead now so I might as well eat some meat. As a new vegan, I've got to start drawing lines somewhere and saying no to brand new vaccines that could have come to market quicker and ethically too had animal testing been skipped is where I've chosen to draw a line.
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Animal testing can’t and won’t be skipped now or in any time soon. It makes no sense to the vast majority of the population to skip suitable testing and it makes no sense to risk human lives for very basic required assessments of new drugs. I assume you don’t know how many potential valuable new drugs get rejected due to problems identified in animal studies. You would be surprised...

I understand your struggles in trying to draw the line but the longer the argument goes the harder it becomes to understand. Will you refuse oxygen therapy, or indeed any medical advance since the early 1900s or surgical procedure since forever? All tested or developed in animal studies...
 
hc25036 said:
Animal testing can’t and won’t be skipped now or in any time soon. It makes no sense to the vast majority of the population to skip suitable testing and it makes no sense to risk human lives for very basic required assessments of new drugs. I assume you don’t know how many potential valuable new drugs get rejected due to problems identified in animal studies. You would be surprised...

I understand your struggles in trying to draw the line but the longer the argument goes the harder it becomes to understand. Will you refuse oxygen therapy, or indeed any medical advance since the early 1900s or surgical procedure since forever? All tested or developed in animal studies...
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Whether a thing makes sense to most people is neither here nor there. Most people think it's okay to eat meat and drink milk!

What you say about historical medical developments is interesting, and something I've been considering. When I became a vegan, I decided that the day I made the decision to become vegan would be the reference date going forwards. I still had some CoffeeMate in the cupboard as well as some chocolate, which I allowed myself to consume since I'd purchased them before decision-day. The same goes for my leather trouser belt. I bought it years ago and because I've got a history with it and it pre-dates decision-day, I've decided to keep it. With regards to the covid vaccines, the animal testing took place after decision-day so that's why I'm able to be more definite about my preference not to be vaccinated. I've still got some paracetamol in the kitchen which I bought before decision-day and I suspect I'll finish the pack off in due course.

But going forwards, I may become even stricter with things. I may well decide never to wear that belt again, I may well decide never to buy paracetamol again and I may well choose to refuse medical treatments that aren't vegan-friendly, as it were. Becoming vegan has turned out to be a process as much as it was a decision as I had no idea this sort of issue would crop up within the context of being a vegan. If I'm to draw lines elsewhere, I expect I'll be drawing them in a way that consolidates and expands my applied and, seemingly evolving understanding of what it means for me to a vegan.
 
windhoek said:
Whether a thing makes sense to most people is neither here nor there. Most people think it's okay to eat meat and drink milk!

What you say about historical medical developments is interesting, and something I've been considering. When I became a vegan, I decided that the day I made the decision to become vegan would be the reference date going forwards. I still had some CoffeeMate in the cupboard as well as some chocolate, which I allowed myself to consume since I'd purchased them before decision-day. The same goes for my leather trouser belt. I bought it years ago and because I've got a history with it and it pre-dates decision-day, I've decided to keep it. With regards to the covid vaccines, the animal testing took place after decision-day so that's why I'm able to be more definite about my preference not to be vaccinated. I've still got some paracetamol in the kitchen which I bought before decision-day and I suspect I'll finish the pack off in due course.

But going forwards, I may become even stricter with things. I may well decide never to wear that belt again, I may well decide never to buy paracetamol again and I may well choose to refuse medical treatments that aren't vegan-friendly, as it were. Becoming vegan has turned out to be a process as much as it was a decision as I had no idea this sort of issue would crop up within the context of being a vegan. If I'm to draw lines elsewhere, I expect I'll be drawing them in a way that consolidates and expands my applied and, seemingly evolving understanding of what it means for me to a vegan.
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That will then stop you having any medication or medical procedure.
 
Paul L said:
I agree, if that stat that the richest 26 people in the world have more money than the 3.8 billion poorest in the world and with the continued increase in global population the mechanisms have to change. Capitalism is too powerful for those benefitting to let it go though but I do hope I will see UBI in my lifetime.
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Adequate legislation always lags, globalisation is responsible for the vast wealth of the few at the top.

Everyone wants a phone and buys stuff through Amazon using Paypal.

100 years ago it was oil; the first boom that enabled excess population and growth, incidentally creating that round of excess wealth.

700 (?) years ago it was the ruler of Mali; probably had more wealth than the rest of the world.
 
russel said:
Are you going to stop walking on roads and pavements or living in a house because a few moles, rabbits, rats and mice might have been harmed building them?
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The fact is, I've no idea where this is going. All I know is, is that I've started drawing lines and I'm finding that more lines need to be drawn.
 
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