Should there be a consequence for vaccine refusers?

[windhoek]

But should you catch it, and spread it among people vaccinated. But as we all know vaccines don't work in all people, and your infection kills them.

The greater good of protecting the wider population outways the protection of an individual.

So at the moment it's a process so you are not
100% vegan.I think then the lesser evil is for you
to accept the vaccine.If not you are potentially
endangering the lives of those(human animals)
who may be required to treat you.

It's hard to say there's not something in what the both of you say. All I can add is that I'm doing the best I can with the information available in summation with the entirety of my existing knowledge and life experience and that I'm not currently convinced that availing myself of a vaccine is the way to go.

 

[Dogberry]

It's hard to say there's not something in what the both of you say. All I can add is that I'm doing the best I can with the information available in summation with the entirety of my existing knowledge and life experience and that I'm not currently convinced that availing myself of a vaccine is the way to go.

As far as I know it the vaccines contents are "vegan".
Animal testing has been used in development.
Are you saying there are other reasons for you
rejecting the vaccine?

 

[hc25036]

That may well be the case. The vaccine issue around animal testing was a recent, very surprising discovery so I'm still figuring out what that means going forwards. For example, the next time I buy multivitamins I now know I need to make sure that they're vegan friendly. I also know that the next time I see my GP for anything I'll need to mention that I'm vegan as there may well be options out there that are suitable for vegans but which are not readily offered for whatever reason. Like I say, I've got some figuring out to do.

With no criticism meant and hoping to help you reach an equilibrium with minimal risk to you with your decision process, please do not reject everything with input from animal experiments. Pretty much every surgical and medical technique has involved animal studies, including the most common non-pharmaceutical treatment for serious COVID which is CPAP (those close-fitting positive air pressure masks).

 

[k90tour]

My wife was really poorly after her first Pfizer vaccine dose. She has Covid last April. It was like two more days of Covid all over again. And then everything was fine. Same for one of her work colleagues.

 

[windhoek]

As far as I know it the vaccines contents are "vegan".
Animal testing has been used in development.
Are you saying there are other reasons for you
rejecting the vaccine?

Specifically, my ethical objection has to do with animal testing.

 

[Tony L]

I believe Finland experimented with a system where everyone received a basic income and could live as recklessly or responsibly as they like and those who chose to study and work hard enjoy the additional fruits of their efforts. But it’s not something I have read about.

Universal Basic Income is one of the more interesting ideas in politics at present and I think I support it. It is certainly far better than imprisoning people on benefits with such oppressive and restrictive rules. One of the things that infuriated me as someone who suffered at the worst mass unemployment Thatcher’s ‘80s had to offer was the state tried to deny you the ability to take any and every opportunity to make a few random quid even if there was absolutely no proper work or real opportunity anywhere to be found. They actually made initiative a punishable offence. Obviously it didn’t stop anyone with a brain from being creative, but the whole concept was fundamentally flawed and almost certainly prevented many little micro-businesses emerging as they had to be so concealed from view. UBI would fix this and also save extraordinary amounts in unnecessary state bureaucracy. I’d like to see the idea explored further. It has certainly been mentioned by both the Greens and Lib Dems.

 

[paulfromcamden]

My wife was really poorly after her first Pfizer vaccine dose. She has Covid last April. It was like two more days of Covid all over again. And then everything was fine. Same for one of her work colleagues.

From The Standard story I linked to a couple of pages back:

Tim Spector, lead scientist on the study and professor of genetic epidemiology at King’s College London, said "It’s interesting to see that those with previous Covid are more likely to experience these mild after effects than naive subjects. This could be good news, as a larger response like this suggests that those getting a first dose after having had Covid are generating a stronger immune reaction and may get greater protection from just a single shot of the vaccine.”

 

[paulfromcamden]

Is there any clear data yet on whether vaccinated people can still be infectious?

 

[gustavm]

Compel people to take vaccine, or deliberately punish for not doing so? No.

But - I believe the estimate for the "natural" R number (under ordinary conditions, no social-distancing or lockdowns etc) is greater than 3. So while the vaccine is reported to give some substantial reduction is transmission, the effect of even a small proportion of the population not taking vaccine can mean the overall average R factor remains above 1.

Therefore, by not taking the vaccine, those people are definitely putting the health & lives of others at risk. I think there is a moral case for ensuring that those choose not to take the vaccine to be placed under greater restrictions on what aspects of "normal" life they should have access to. i.e. People are of course entitled to take a principled stand, but must accept the cost of that.

Whether there are reasonable practical ways this can be done is another question.

 

[Dogberry]

Specifically, my ethical objection has to do with animal testing.

PETA statement
The goal of being vegan and advocating for animal rights should always be to bring about positive change for animals. As long as tests on animals are a legal requirement, refusing to take a medicine on ethical grounds will not help animals who have already been used in tests or spare any the same fate in the future.

What needs to happen is a change in the law so that animals are no longer required to suffer in tests, and you can most effectively bring this about by using your voice to speak out for animals in laboratories and supporting our work. To keep yourself and others as fit and healthy as possible – and allow you to continue advocating for animals – please follow the advice of your health-care provider on taking a medicine.

 

[PhilofCas]

There are already personal consequences for those choosing not to have a vaccination; a very much increased risk of dying a terrible death, fighting for the last gasp of breath.

Exactly this ^^, this is enough in a civilised society.

 

[Paul L]

Universal Basic Income is one of the more interesting ideas in politics at present and I think I support it. It is certainly far better than imprisoning people on benefits with such oppressive and restrictive rules. One of the things that infuriated me as someone who suffered at the worst mass unemployment Thatcher’s ‘80s had to offer was the state tried to deny you the ability to take any and every opportunity to make a few random quid even if there was absolutely no proper work or real opportunity anywhere to be found. They actually made initiative a punishable offence. Obviously it didn’t stop anyone with a brain from being creative, but the whole concept was fundamentally flawed and almost certainly prevented many little micro-businesses emerging as they had to be so concealed from view. UBI would fix this and also save extraordinary amounts in unnecessary state bureaucracy. I’d like to see the idea explored further. It has certainly been mentioned by both the Greens and Lib Dems.

Yes as I understand it everyone gets a basic income and social care that will sustain them and entirely up to them if they eat junk or spend it on subscriptions or frivolity at the expense of household bills or food, they will be given the choice and no one should judge. But those who choose to be frugal or study or achieve more and achieve a greater level of income and choice won’t then have it rubbed in their face by the first group being bailed out further at the latter’s expense.

I’m sure it’s more complicated than that but says if you take responsibility you will reap the rewards and collectively we still financially and support those who cannot or choose not to do the same. I too suffered work wise at the beginning of the 90s and it was devastating mentally as someone who wanted to achieve and progress. Much worse than the discipline of navigating lockdowns. This is not to denigrate those who have suffered genuine hardship or loss through lockdowns of course.

 

[Dinovector]

Exactly this ^^, this is enough in a civilised society.

In a civilised society

 

[Paul L]

Exactly this ^^, this is enough in a civilised society.

But it misses the point entirely of obeying the rules, it advocates the horrible culture of do what you like, pick the rules you want to follow and the others are for someone else. Modern society seems to have this running through it in many different ways.

 

[Tony L]

I’m sure it’s more complicated than that but says if you take responsibility you will reap the rewards and collectively we still financially and support those who cannot or choose not to do the same.

It is also based around the idea that in an increasingly automated world full-time/full employment will cease to be a thing for many people. This has been the elephant in the room for decades now yet our whole political system is so rooted in 19th century concepts it doesn’t grasp this at all. There needs to be both a wealth redistribution and culture change, and UBI is a mechanism in that picture. I find it preposterous that so much is still based around working weeks, hourly rates etc. That is the language of mills and coal mining.

 

[Paul L]

I agree, if that stat that the richest 26 people in the world have more money than the 3.8 billion poorest in the world and with the continued increase in global population the mechanisms have to change. Capitalism is too powerful for those benefitting to let it go though but I do hope I will see UBI in my lifetime.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

It's hard to say there's not something in what the both of you say. All I can add is that I'm doing the best I can with the information available in summation with the entirety of my existing knowledge and life experience and that I'm not currently convinced that availing myself of a vaccine is the way to go.

I would like to make clear that despite my position stated upthread, I do try to recognise that some objections to the vaccine are ethical in nature, rather than simply dumb, or completely batshit. That's why I can't and wouldn't advocate for active punishment or deterrent. Individuals have to weigh up the issues for themselves, and make a choice. And should do so knowing that their choice might carry some consequences in terms of their individual freedoms.

It's no different, really, to somebody exercising their right to free speech by spouting some alt-right bile on Twitter, and being given their P45 the next working day. They have a right, it's their choice how they exercise it, but they have to live with any consequences.

 

[Seeker_UK]

But it misses the point entirely of obeying the rules, it advocates the horrible culture of do what you like, pick the rules you want to follow and the others are for someone else. Modern society seems to have this running through it in many different ways.

If people had good grounds to believe that society will support them sufficiently well, they would not think they need as much as they do, nor would it require selfish behaviour to get it.

 

[Paul L]

Is that a way of saying - I don’t accept the right to govern as it’s not giving me what I want/expect/respect so that bit doesn’t apply to me, I’ll just go my own way and take the personal consequences but have no accountability otherwise?

 

[simon g]

But it misses the point entirely of obeying the rules, it advocates the horrible culture of do what you like, pick the rules you want to follow and the others are for someone else. Modern society seems to have this running through it in many different ways.

One is not related to the other; there is no 'rule' about having a vaccination. It's a personal choice, a choice with consequences. It's not about following 'rules', as there is no 'rule' on this specific issue, i.e. having a vaccination. If you want to talk about making a vaccination compulsory, then that's a very different proposition.