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Should there be a consequence for vaccine refusers?

Logic itself, and evidence in the last week or two, tells us that vaccines will reduce transmission rates (albeit to some other level than they reduce severe symptoms).
 
@windhoek

I’m very uncomfortable with the direction this thread has taken - it was never my intention for my posts to lead to vilification and extreme positions to be taken.

The reality is the taking an outlier position, and by all logical considerations of biology, evolution and philosophy veganism is just that, then anomalies are produced. The reality is that many of the comforts and protections of modern life come from exploitation of animals. That exploitation is uncomfortable as nicely explained by cutting42 above and in the past has gone too far and in recent years has been rowed back. As you are finding, locating a happy position when you are uncomfortable with any exploitation of animals is very difficult, and I would argue, is logically impossible whilst wanting to take advantage of any of the benefits of modern research. It does not, however, warrant the distasteful posts that are starting to appear.
 
Big Tabs said:
I don’t think you have any insight into how ill you sound.

It reads like you have some issues in your life that you haven’t come to terms with.

You are saying that you will stand on the edge of a cliff, and if you fall you are quite happy to drag people over the cliff edge with you.
You know that all you have to do is walk away from the edge of the cliff.
That is the advice that you decide to ignore.
You are not vulnerable as you choose to put yourself in that position. As you say, it is voluntary.

You are vulnerable if you have some mental health issues at the moment. That I am willing to believe, as at least that offers some explanation for such irrational behaviour.
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I suspect I've become a straw man in the minds of some. I'm simply trying to get through life without buying meat, dairy, fish, eggs, honey and leather goods, and not contributing to animal suffering in general - a task, as it turns out, that goes quite a bit beyond changing my shopping habits. I had no idea how my vegan way of life would unfold when I made the decision last year but it's become clear that it's not as straightforward as I thought it would be as it's proved to be more than a little complex to navigate the ethical pathways that have appeared before me. I obviously and honestly don't think that's a deranged way of living. If it seems that way to you then fair dos - your thoughts and rationale are your thoughts and rationale.
 
windhoek said:
I suspect I've become a straw man in the minds of some. I'm simply trying to get through life without buying meat, dairy, fish, eggs, honey and leather goods, and not contributing to animal suffering in general - a task, as it turns out, that goes quite a bit beyond changing my shopping habits. I had no idea how my vegan way of life would unfold when I made the decision last year but it's become clear that it's not as straightforward as I thought it would be as it's proved to be more than a little complex to navigate the ethical pathways that have appeared before me. I obviously and honestly don't think that's a deranged way of living. If it seems that way to you then fair dos - your thoughts and rationale are your thoughts and rationale.
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I don’t give a fig about you choosing to adopt a type of veganism, this thread is not about vegans.
(although it is hard to tell in parts)

What I do care about is a good society, and your voluntary avoidance of acting in the common good requires robust challenge.
 
cutting42 said:
@windhoek
Hi Derek

We have never met f2f but have chatted many times on here and I like you and I feel you are a good sort. I know your veganism is new and very important to you and I complete respect your decision to travel this route.

I work in the pharmaceutical research arena and can tell you that if drug companies could find a way to test drugs effectively without animals they would. Not just through any ethical or care perspective but in cost terms. Testing with animals is very expensive, hard to do, incredibly unpopular with most of the general population and frankly they hate doing it. So much so they have outsourced most animal testing to third party companies to take the heat so to speak. Oh and as mentioned above it is a requirement by law around the world.

This is not a "pro" animal testing perspective, just a fact of life that currently with drug safety testing we have no reliable method to provide statistical confidence of safety data without animal testing. In fact the final safety test is done in humans as a part of phase 1 testing. (I say final but testing continues for many years once a drug is approved for use in humans).

You decision to refuse to take ethical pharmaceuticals (ethical is a definition of prescription drugs not a value judgement) is entirely up to you but I feel you need to weigh up the potential impact on others. For a drug like paracetamol for example the only impact is to you and your immediate pain so not impact on others.

With vaccines, their statistical effectiveness on a population relies on the vast majority of a population becoming immune, either permanently or for a period of time and when that is achieved, the spread can be halted and in some cases (eg smallpox) the virus eradicated. If a less than optimal number of people are vaccinated, the spread is only slowed not stopped and the partially vaccinated population essentially "trains" the virus to adapt as it can survive in the non vaccinated people and learn to evolve to become resistant to the vaccines leading to further outbreaks and more spikes in infections.

I say this to help your thought process and make the best decision for your personal commitments, your health and the health of others around you. Please feel free to research more into the science of how vaccines work, it is a fascinating topic.

I am no scientist or virologist but work with many who are and have been working in medical research for 35 years. Big pharma is not necessarily the evil many accuse it of, it is mostly made up of very caring, very bright scientists who want to make a difference.

Take care and I wish you good luck with you decision.
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Thanks, Gareth. There's a lot of sense and truth in what you say around the utilitarian aspect of animal testing and the pharmaceutical industry. I genuinely get that the goal of animal testing, apart from fulfilling a legal requirement, is to help members of our species cope with or overcome health issues. I agree, more information is always a good thing.

I wish you and yours the best of health as well :)
 
Big Tabs said:
I don’t give a fig about you choosing to adopt a type of veganism, this thread is not about vegans.
(although it is hard to tell in parts)

What I do care about is a good society, and your voluntary avoidance of acting in the common good requires robust challenge.
Click to expand...

By all means, feel free to participate in constructive conversation.
 
Bearing in mind the reports now saying some of the vaccines may be less effective against up to moderate covid cases, but may be as effective against severe cases - and they haven't tested this completely, I gather, for fairly obvious reasons - should people now be given the choice of which vaccine they can have ?
 
HarryCrumb said:
No, I simply don't like watching several people on this thread gang up on one, as if he is to blame for the worldwide spread of corona virus. If he doesn't want to take a vaccine, good on him for saying so. I'm fairy sure that the majority of people in the UK will take it so I don't think you will have much issue reaching 70%.
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Other people will be responsible, so it is fine for some to be irresponsible?

That is a selfish attitude.

And I note that you don’t bother to even try to answer my specific question to you.
 
This thread took a disappointing and unedifying turn, a few pages back. @windhoek my sympathies, and good on you for your measured response to some pretty unpleasant provocation.

I think there is a material and fundamental difference between the antivaxx nut jobs, and people with a sincere ethical objection to the vaccine. And the numbers of the latter are probably small enough not to matter. For reasons expressed up thread, I think that objection is a little misguided, but I respect the obvious thought and sincerity that has gone into it. I wonder if the relative newness of your Veganism means you are trying to navigate difficult roads, and others have already laid out a decent path. What does the Vegan Society have to say about vaccines and drugs?

For the rest, how about laying off Windhoek? He is a decent and valued member here and his contributions are invariably worthwhile. If you can't argue your position without aggression and rudeness, maybe keep it to yourself?
 
avole said:
Bearing in mind the reports now saying some of the vaccines may be less effective against up to moderate covid cases, but may be as effective against severe cases - and they haven't tested this completely, I gather, for fairly obvious reasons - should people now be given the choice of which vaccine they can have ?
Click to expand...

Given unlimited availability of both, then at a personal level it would make sense to opt for the Pfizer vaccine. That is not the situation and taking whichever one is available first is the only reasonable decision.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
This thread took a disappointing and unedifying turn, a few pages back. @windhoek my sympathies, and good on you for your measured response to some pretty unpleasant provocation.

I think there is a material and fundamental difference between the antivaxx nut jobs, and people with a sincere ethical objection to the vaccine. And the numbers of the latter are probably small enough not to matter. For reasons expressed up thread, I think that objection is a little misguided, but I respect the obvious thought and sincerity that has gone into it. I wonder if the relative newness of your Veganism means you are trying to navigate difficult roads, and others have already laid out a decent path. What does the Vegan Society have to say about vaccines and drugs?

For the rest, how about laying off Windhoek? He is a decent and valued member here and his contributions are invariably worthwhile. If you can't argue your position without aggression and rudeness, maybe keep it to yourself?
Click to expand...

Have I broken any pfm rules? If so, report the post.

I find the concept of refusing a vaccine offensive in the extreme.

My daughter is caring for people who are dying from covid-19 on a daily basis. Death every day at your place of work.
What you perceive as aggression and rudeness is more incredulity and despair at the lack of common sense and care for society as a whole.
 
hc25036 said:
@windhoek

I’m very uncomfortable with the direction this thread has taken - it was never my intention for my posts to lead to vilification and extreme positions to be taken.

The reality is the taking an outlier position, and by all logical considerations of biology, evolution and philosophy veganism is just that, then anomalies are produced. The reality is that many of the comforts and protections of modern life come from exploitation of animals. That exploitation is uncomfortable as nicely explained by cutting42 above and in the past has gone too far and in recent years has been rowed back. As you are finding, locating a happy position when you are uncomfortable with any exploitation of animals is very difficult, and I would argue, is logically impossible whilst wanting to take advantage of any of the benefits of modern research. It does not, however, warrant the distasteful posts that are starting to appear.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it would seem I've contributed to taking the thread quite a bit beyond its original purpose in whether people who choose not to be vaccinated ought to be penalisied. Constructive conversation is always a good thing, but it has become a lengthy conversation for sure.
 
windhoek said:
I suspect I've become a straw man in the minds of some. I'm simply trying to get through life without buying meat, dairy, fish, eggs, honey and leather goods, and not contributing to animal suffering in general - a task, as it turns out, that goes quite a bit beyond changing my shopping habits. I had no idea how my vegan way of life would unfold when I made the decision last year but it's become clear that it's not as straightforward as I thought it would be as it's proved to be more than a little complex to navigate the ethical pathways that have appeared before me. I obviously and honestly don't think that's a deranged way of living. If it seems that way to you then fair dos - your thoughts and rationale are your thoughts and rationale.
Click to expand...
Your path is not one I would choose (or even agree with) but it seems to me you are doing your best to reconcile your views and behaviour with external events. Good luck to you.
 
Big Tabs said:
You have avoided answering any specific points that I have made.

Have a read back, and when you are able, have another go.
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I obviously missed that as I saw a lot of rhetoric and not a lot of substance. I'll go back and have a look.

EDIT: I had a look and I don't see any specific points or questions. Feel free to repost, or PM me.
 
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