Brexit: give me a positive effect... VI

[Colin L]

My understanding is people in N.Ireland don’t want such a border. If they do, then go ahead and have one. Sorted.

Brian,

Its fair to say that some people in NI want a border and some don't. So you suggest letting them go ahead and impose a border and see what happens.
Your memory seems to be very short. I think we know what will happen, and you think that's it "sorted". Define sorted and how many deaths that involves.

Is there any wonder that people criticise your logic and thinking.

 

[eternumviti]

Yep, I do, overriding devolved government, stuff that.
Where's our sovereignty gone?

The NIP doesn't come even as close to undermining the devolved status of Scotland and Wales as does the EU, to which it seems, incomprehensibly, that an awful lot of Scots wish to willingly 'assume the position'.

Sigh... typing knowing this is a waste of time, but doing it anyway.

The Good Friday Agreement, is an internationally recognised and binding agreement (and the US has legislated to protect its status) which guarantees no borders or customs and free movement of people between NI and Ireland.

The WA signed by the Tories 10 months ago guarantees the status of the GFA. For the GFA to continue NI must continue with current practices and standards and any materials shipped from GB which could be moved to Ireland should be treated as if they are being exported from GB to another EU country, otherwise GB goods, which may not meet EU standards, can flow to the EU through Ireland without the required checks.

The Tory IMB undercuts the GFA either deliberately or as a negotiating tactic. You can have full autonomy for the Tories over all the devolved governments and regions of the UK including NI, or you can have the GFA, but you can't have both.

I've just skimmed the full text of the GFA, and much to my surprise I could find no mention of borders (apart from a few references to 'cross-border' matters), customs or free movement of people, the latter anyway long enshrined in the Common Travel Area Agreement of 1922.

What the GFA does state is that 'the present wish of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, freely exercised and legitimate, is to maintain the Union and, accordingly, that Northern Ireland's status as part of the United Kingdom reflects and relies upon that wish; and that it would be wrong to make any change in the status of Northern Ireland save with the consent of a majority of its people'.

A customs border down the Irish Sea would constitute such a change, would it not?

 

[I.D.C.]

A deal is coming I'm sure.

 

[Colin L]

The NIP doesn't come even as close to undermining the devolved status of Scotland and Wales as does the EU, to which it seems, incomprehensibly, that an awful lot of Scots wish to willingly 'assume the position'.

I've just skimmed the full text of the GFA, and much to my surprise I could find no mention of borders (apart from a few references to 'cross-border' matters), customs or free movement of people, the latter anyway long enshrined in the Common Travel Area Agreement of 1922.

What the GFA does state is that 'the present wish of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, freely exercised and legitimate, is to maintain the Union and, accordingly, that Northern Ireland's status as part of the United Kingdom reflects and relies upon that wish; and that it would be wrong to make any change in the status of Northern Ireland save with the consent of a majority of its people'.

A customs border down the Irish Sea would constitute such a change, would it not?

Apparently not, otherwise why would the Tories have signed the EU withdrawal agreement only this year, which requires a changed custom status for NI.

 

[Brian]

I believe they don't, you're correct. But then again, the UK (of which NI is a part) voted to leave the EU, and that means there has to be a border between the UK and the EU. It's either on the island of Ireland itself, or it's in the Irish Sea. On the island breaches the GFA, so North Sea it is. That's just part of leaving and they need to gerroverit. Democracy, innit. The people have spoken. No use complaining about it now.

No, there should be no border between UK countries.

The situation in Ireland is complex, it needs to be an exception and not treated as a pawn in some game.

In 2020 and with civilised adults supposedly negotiating it is not beyond the wit of man to have no border/border controls under these circumstances. Certainly, I would walk away from creating a border. If the EU insist on such, well, they can get on with it all on their own.

 

[SteveS1]

Apparently not, otherwise why would the Tories have signed the EU withdrawal agreement only this year, which requires a changed custom status for NI.

He was "compelled" to be a dishonest negotiator, it's all OK by ET.

 

[Brian]

Brian,

Its fair to say that some people in NI want a border and some don't. So you suggest letting them go ahead and impose a border and see what happens.
Your memory seems to be very short. I think we know what will happen, and you think that's it "sorted". Define sorted and how many deaths that involves.

Is there any wonder that people criticise your logic and thinking.

Don’t even try to tell me what I remember, I am very aware of what could happen.

I’m sure you know what I meant by ‘sorted’ so I won’t explain further, it’s obvious.

I believe the Irish people do not want a border, so that means no border. Go tell the EU ‘negotiators’ that, if they are the people insisting on one.

 

[KrisW]

What the GFA does state is that 'the present wish of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, freely exercised and legitimate, is to maintain the Union and, accordingly, that Northern Ireland's status as part of the United Kingdom reflects and relies upon that wish; and that it would be wrong to make any change in the status of Northern Ireland save with the consent of a majority of its people'.

Remind the audience what the majority of Northern Ireland’s people decided with regards to EU membership. Did that constitute consent to have Northern Ireland’s existing status as part of an EU member state changed?

The UK government talked itself into a situation where it had three demands that it could not back down on: avoid a hard border, avoid special treatment of NI vis-a-vis the rest of the UK, and leave the EU customs union. It doesn’t take a genius to see that these are contradictory.

The border down the Irish sea is the best solution, pragmatically, as there are only a handful of points of entry, and the Irish customs and revenue are already prepared to facilitate the considerable portion of NI’s imports from the rest of UK that landing at Dublin or Rosslare for onward transport into Northern Ireland (look at a road-map to see why this happens). This makes customs compliance a bulk issue that can be started before crossing the sea, not a check on every truck, van or trailer as it hits a road checkpoint.

Farming is the most affected industry: many farmers on one side of the border sell their produce to a processing company on the other; some food products cross the border multiple times: milk from Southern cows goes to a Northern dairy, is pasteurised, converted to whey and sold to a Southern cheese factory which sends the bulk cheese to Northern Ireland to be packaged for retail; some of that final product then goes to GB, and some comes back South again. Put a border there, and those businesses will close, and NI is not exactly a booming economy as it is.

The alternative to a sea border is to erect customs posts at the 275 different places where a road crosses the border (and you can come up with some fun suggestions for the 11 roads that actually form the border, with one side in the Republic and the other in Northern Ireland), or just decide to do nothing and brace yourself for a wave of smuggling: something that’s already a problem. Smuggling and other organised crime is already a major funding source for paramilitaries (although it’s closer to the truth to say that paramilitarism is a major cover for organised crime in the North).

 

[eternumviti]

The alternative, Kris, is what it has always been, a tariff-free FTA.

 

[Colin L]

You mean membership of the EFTA or EEA, which the Tories rejected from day one

 

[Brian]

Katya Adler on BBC just now saying exactly what I’ve been saying here about compromise being needed by both sides. I wonder if she knows how wrong she is, the EU doesn’t have to compromise on anything. The EU is BIG and the UK is small. I read it here.

Katya is also saying there is talk of a deal as late as in December, as Colin B has been saying for months. I could have sworn it’s been made clear here that October is the deadline or it is too late.

I think I’ll believe Katya. She seems smart.

 

[SteveS1]

Katya Adler on BBC just now saying exactly what I’ve been saying here about compromise being needed by both sides. I wonder if she knows how wrong she is, the EU doesn’t have to compromise on anything. The EU is BIG and the UK is small. I read it here.

Nobody has said that. We have been treated to various fantasies whereby the UK is entitled to most of what it had without the down sides. That last line is correct - where do you think that leaves the smaller entity?

Katya is also saying there is talk of a deal as late as in December, as Colin B has been saying for months. I could have sworn it’s been made clear here that October is the deadline or it is too late.

That was Boris, he was due to walk today IIRC - strange to see you playing his fiddle again. This issue has done a job on you.

I think I’ll believe Katya. She seems smart.

I suggest you read more of her stuff then, I doubt you'll always be so keen.

 

[tuga]

 

[Brian]

Nobody has said that. We have been treated to various fantasies whereby the UK is entitled to most of what it had without the down sides. That last line is correct - where do you think that leaves the smaller entity?



That was Boris, he was due to walk today IIRC - strange to see you playing his fiddle again. This issue has done a job on you.



I suggest you read more of her stuff then, I doubt you'll always be so keen.

I’ve been saying for weeks compromise is needed by both sides and have been ridiculed for it. Which bit has nobody said?

Not much else to say really. You do tend to resort to the personal comments nowadays, nobody has ‘done a job’ on me.

The BBC reporter is a damn sight more believable than many posting in this thread. I think you dismiss it out of hand because it isn’t what you want to hear. Sad really. A deal needs to be done and the EU does need to compromise.

 

[Brian]

Still scraping along.

 

[tuga]

Still scraping along.

Laughter is the best medicine for this pathetic display...

 

[notaclue]

Game over. https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/status/1316785718321176576

"@BorisJohnson will set out UK reactions and approach tomorrow in the light of his statement of 7 September."

Which said... " There needs to be an agreement with our European friends by the time of the European Council on 15 October if it’s going to be in force by the end of the year. So there is no sense in thinking about timelines that go beyond that point. "

We are entering the age of Kentish lorry parks and no toilet paper.

 

[SteveS1]

I’ve been saying for weeks compromise is needed by both sides and have been ridiculed for it. Which bit has nobody said?

Not much else to say really. You do tend to resort to the personal comments nowadays, nobody has ‘done a job’ on me.

The BBC reporter is a damn sight more believable than many posting in this thread. I think you dismiss it out of hand because it isn’t what you want to hear. Sad really. A deal needs to be done and the EU does need to compromise.

Nothing sad with me except to see your support for this Tory crap. I'm a fan of Katya, I'm not so sure you would be if you read more of her - which you obviously haven't. She is very pro-EU. But I appreciate the BBC has been very wary of upsetting Johnson as he threatens them with cash starvation.

If I need a laugh in this situation, it's trying to figure out how you move from knowing that Johnson and his cronies are an unspeakable bunch of liars and charlatans in UK politics, but transform into honest, downtrodden victims when they have to face the consequences of their dishonesty and opportunism concerning the EU. That's quite a pivot.

I wonder why the article failed to mention...
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...sary-moves-for-brexit-deal-leaked-eu-document

 

[droodzilla]

Startled!

 

[stephen bennett]

A deal is coming I'm sure.

Probably in name only though.

Stephen