Winter election II

[peterplantagenet]

All very interesting but wotsit got ta do with getting Brexit done!

 

[Lee T]

Perhaps he was just channelling Rachel Riley..on the leaders debate/after wearing a t-shirt featuring a doctored pic of Corbyn at an anti apartheid demo(!!!!!);
“I didn’t feel comfortable knowing my workplace was to be full of racists tonight. I don’t endorse Boris, but I do endorse #NeverCorbyn".
https://www.news.com.au/entertainme...e/news-story/feb93a5b1b8cde6b794ca03a82534dbf

Proof that intelligence doesn't always equate to common sense.
The message against anti-Semitism is sound as she is Jewish after all but her delivery was more akin to the far right knuckle dragging fraternity than someone with high intelligence.

 

[Tony L]

As regards Corbyn, I think his problem is not so much that he is an anti-semite but that he is just incapable of credibly dealing with the problem. Partly this is because he has such a long history full of questionable comments and associations but mostly it's because he is just a really, really bad politician and incapable of a complex political task like rebuilding trust with the Jewish community. Which is also his Brexit problem and generally my problem with him -- it's not that I think he is a racist, or a secret Brexiteer or a radical marxist but that he is just, well, terrible.

I agree with that entirely. I believe Corbyn to be a decent enough bloke with some good ideas, and likely a very good constituency MP, but he has absolutely failed to rise to the position of party leadership. His only conceivable advantage is the Tories are clearly a heck of a lot worse from any logical perspective. There is just no way in hell they should be heading for a parliamentary majority, but Corbyn’s failure will likely gift it to them.

 

[gavreid]

The Guardian is reporting:

Last month, Jonathan Romain, a senior rabbi in Maidenhead, wrote to all 823 families in his congregation suggesting that “a Corbyn-led government would pose a danger to Jewish life as we know it”.

Romain, the author of The Jews of England and a former chair of the Movement for Reform Judaism, added: “I am therefore suggesting we should each put aside all other considerations and vote for whichever party is most likely to defeat Labour in whatever constituency we are in – even if we would never normally vote for that party.” [my emphasis]

 

[Stunsworth]

...it's not that I think he is a racist, or a secret Brexiteer or a radical marxist but that he is just, well, terrible.

Corbyn is (obviously) very popular with most of the Labour party membership, but I doubt his wider appeal.

Totally anecdotal, but I've yet to meet anyone who's talked about him and not described him as a variation of 'useless'. The most common comment I've heard from Labour voters is that with anyone else in charge Labour would walk the election. That's my concern with him, not the policies but his presentation of them and how that's viewed by the general public. I know personality shouldn't count in this sort of thing, but the truth of the matter is that it does.

 

[Lee T]

I agree with that entirely. I believe Corbyn to be a decent enough bloke with some good ideas, and likely a very good constituency MP, but he has absolutely failed to rise to the position of party leadership. His only conceivable advantage is the Tories are clearly a heck of a lot worse from any logical perspective. There is just no way in hell they should be heading for a parliamentary majority, but Corbyn’s failure will likely gift it to them.

Nicola Sturgeon aside, who would you say, amongst the current bunch, hits the heady heights of competent party leader in modern times. Someone who fits the bill to lead this country through the next 10 years or so.

 

[NeilR]

I think it's worth remembering that Labour's problem is not that it's full of cross burning racists or people who want to build death camps but that it is institutionally racist. That is, the party is developing a culture and behaviour that fails to treat Jews as it treats others and we see this in things like its slow/poor handling of reports of antisemitism and how it allows situations like the Luciana Berger case. It is an entirely legitimate fear for Jews to wonder what would happen if such an organisation became the government even before we consider their history of being almost constantly on the receiving end of abuse, ethnic cleansings and genocides.

As regards Corbyn, I think his problem is not so much that he is an anti-semite but that he is just incapable of credibly dealing with the problem. Partly this is because he has such a long history full of questionable comments and associations but mostly it's because he is just a really, really bad politician and incapable of a complex political task like rebuilding trust with the Jewish community. Which is also his Brexit problem and generally my problem with him -- it's not that I think he is a racist, or a secret Brexiteer or a radical marxist but that he is just, well, terrible.

Absolutely. I wish I could express things as clearly as you.

 

[Tony L]

Nicola Sturgeon aside, who would you say, amongst the current bunch, hits the heady heights of competent party leader in modern times. Someone who fits the bill to lead this country through the next 10 years or so.

The field is quite exceptionally poor. Johnson, Corbyn, and sadly Jo Swinson are clearly unfit for purpose and as such not worthy of my vote. I’ll therefore either stay at home or vote Green (Caroline Lucas is by far the best of the current bunch) despite their not having even the slightest hope in hell in my seat. My hope is that by the following election the Lib Dems will have installed Layla Moran, which is exactly what they should have done this time. At that point I can start voting for them again!

PS To be honest I’m hugely depressed and disillusioned by the whole thing at the moment. The concept of voting in this particular seat is an insult to ones intelligence as any non-Labour vote will never translate into representation under the obviously unfit for purpose FPTP system. It really is a total waste of my time.

 

[gavreid]

Guys, get a grip...

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.or...ire-the-myth-of-a-labour-antisemitism-crisis/

This piece concludes

"There were no witches in Salem; Jewish elders did not gather in a graveyard at night; a Judeo-Bolshevik conspiracy did not target Nazi Germany. The allegation that Labour is rife with antisemitism is of a piece with these fantastic antecedents. To judge by the available evidence, the truth of this controversy lies not in the middle but at one pole: there is no ‘Labour antisemitism crisis’."

I referred to this academic book a few months ago -the Israel lobby is working hard to have it suppressed, to the extent that Waterstones cancelled a launch event in Brighton recently

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bad-News-L...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=0745340660

 

[Joe]

Nicola Sturgeon aside, .

Why does Nicola Sturgeon get a bye all the time ?

She is a leader of a country of only 5 million people. A country greatly funded by the UK as a whole. Some of the major institutions that she has charge of are failing. She doesn't have to run half of the institutions that a fully independent country has to fund.

She is at best the leader of a county council and no more.

Scottish independence would floor her completely.

Hell...anyone can lay out before the electorate the fantasy world that she does but I would like to see her deliver her ambitions for Scotland using the tax take from only 5 million Scots.

 

[cooky1257]

Lots of people posting how Labour have failed to deal with anti-semitism.
The most egregious examples we've seen are hardly pointing to institutional racism/anti semitism. If you've got evidence/examples that are directly attributable the Labour Party members publish it. So we can see for ourselves.

 

[Fatmarley]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/nov/26/justin-welby-chief-rabbi-labour-antisemitism

Some of the top replies on Facebook:

"I don't know why anyone would think that the Tory party offered a more equable less prejudiced choice for any community or minority - look at Windrush, the hostile environment, a cloud of anti-muslim complaints, not to mention good old original class snobbery. The timing of this also seems extremely political."

"The Chief Rabbi and great friend of Boris Johnson"

"Millionaire and ex-CEO of fossil fuel company turned preacher sticks boot into political party trying desperately to save NHS, welfare state and represent the vulnerable..."

 

[Tony L]

Lots of people posting how Labour have failed to deal with anti-semitism.
The most egregious examples we've seen are hardly pointing to institutional racism/anti semitism. If you've got evidence/examples that are directly attributable the Labour Party members publish it. So we can see for ourselves.

The clue is in the phrase ‘failed to deal with’! Corbyn’s utter ineptitude has allowed what was only ever a trace element of truly moronic Labour extremists fizzing with visceral hatred towards Israel to dominate the party’s coverage for three years now. The two things the wider public at large ‘know’ about Corbyn’s Labour is a) they have no moral stance on Brexit, and b) they have a problem with Jews. I’m not saying either perception is true, but that is the narrative that has been allowed to define the party.

In the meantime Conservative Party policy has very directly killed/ruined the lives of countless ethnic minorities with venal policies such as the ‘Hostile Environment’, Windrush and Grenfell, plus have high profile ex-Tory minister/Tory peer Baroness Wasi brand it ‘institutionally racist’. In any sane world the party would be sued back to the 18th century (where it clearly belongs) for corporate manslaughter or similar, yet Corbyn is too bloody dumb to recognise a clearly racist mural, presides over a party where Jewish MPs are bullied out etc, so that becomes the story. He is the exact opposite of a leader.

 

[rbrown]

Momentum and other 'far Left' types are constantly telling Brexit voters that they're a bunch of racists, or even Neo Nazis, how ironic for them to be accused of the one thing that they define themselves against.

Yes it's ironic but that doesn't make it true.

 

[Tony L]

Owen Jones has just this minute destroyed James Brokenshite on Politics Live, making all the points I made in the second paragraph above and more. Really battered him and his ugly racist and homophobic party.

 

[gavreid]

The clue is in the phrase ‘failed to deal with’! Corbyn’s utter ineptitude has allowed what was only ever a trace element of truly moronic Labour extremists fizzing with visceral hatred towards Israel to dominate the party’s coverage for three years now. The two things the wider public at large ‘know’ about Corbyn’s Labour is a) they have no moral stance on Brexit, and b) they have a problem with Jews. I’m not saying either perception is true, but that is the narrative that has been allowed to define the party.

The campaign is designed to be unanswerable. You've seen today how it's been ramped up to become so far-fetched it makes Santa seem real.

 

[Woodface]

It's the fact that he's lost all sense of proportion that tells me that this is just a show. "What will become of Jews and Judaism in Britain if the Labour Party forms the next government?" Honestly!

I think you are on dodgy ground there. Would you say that to a black person about racism? It is very difficult to question whether someone feels threatened?

I am not Jewish so have no idea how I would feel about AS & the Labour Party.

 

[gavreid]

I think you are on dodgy ground there. Would you say that to a black person about racism? It is very difficult to question whether someone feels threatened?

I am not Jewish so have no idea how I would feel about AS & the Labour Party.

I've supplied a lot of considered material to support my argument - here's the last

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/statement/rebuttals/

I can say with certainty that my friends who are leading members in Jewish voice for Labour would not support a party that is Institutionally antisemitic.

 

[cooky1257]

The clue is in the phrase ‘failed to deal with’! Corbyn’s utter ineptitude has allowed what was only ever a trace element of truly moronic Labour extremists fizzing with visceral hatred towards Israel to dominate the party’s coverage for three years now. The two things the wider public at large ‘know’ about Corbyn’s Labour is a) they have no moral stance on Brexit, and b) they have a problem with Jews. I’m not saying either perception is true, but that is the narrative that has been allowed to define the party.

In the meantime Conservative Party policy has very directly killed/ruined the lives of countless ethnic minorities with venal policies such as the ‘Hostile Environment’, Windrush and Grenfell, plus high profile ex-Tory minister/Tory peer Baroness Wasi brand it ‘institutionally racist’. In any sane world the party would be sued back to the 18th century (where it clearly belongs) for corporate manslaughter or similar, yet Corbyn is to bloody dumb to recognise a clearly racist mural, presides over a party where Jewish MPs are bullied out etc, so that becomes the story. He is the exact opposite of a leader.

And I'm saying in the interest of justice and fairness if you/we don't know the (evidence based) extent of the problem, you can't know the degree of failure to deal with it.

 

[Woodface]

I've supplied a lot of considered material to support my argument - here's the last

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/statement/rebuttals/

This is fine, doesn't change the fact that Labour have handed AS very badly. It doesn't change my central point that Labour supporters accuse people of effectively 'playing the race card' when it comes to AS in a way they never would with any other group.

If you look up thread there have been some very reasonable responses to this situation from people of Jewish origin. A good friend of mine keeps me apprised of AS incidents within the Labour movement, he is still a Labour supporter but only just.

I don't give a shit about how bad the Tories are BTW, I don't vote for them, never have & the fact that Labour are not as bad as xyz is irrelevant to me. I just want the Labour Party to sort itself out. All of this is as a direct result of having a weak, ineffectual leader.

Corbyn is just one of those irritating MC faux do-gooders who adopt certain lefty tropes with no real understanding of what it is like to grow up poor & working class.