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35451
Guest
I agree. But it’s happening and it’s unprecedented in past electioneering.
Winter election II
- Thread starter gavreid
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I agree. But it’s happening and it’s unprecedented in past electioneering.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Not forgotting that the Tory Party has been the historical home for anti-semites in the UK, which is one reason why there has been a solid tradition of Labour support in the Jewish Communities, even among the more well-heeled sections.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Conservative_Party
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
That's what Hitler said.
cooky1257
pfm Member
Perhaps he was just channelling Rachel Riley..on the leaders debate/after wearing a t-shirt featuring a doctored pic of Corbyn at an anti apartheid demo(!!!!!);
“I didn’t feel comfortable knowing my workplace was to be full of racists tonight. I don’t endorse Boris, but I do endorse #NeverCorbyn".
https://www.news.com.au/entertainme...e/news-story/feb93a5b1b8cde6b794ca03a82534dbf
“I didn’t feel comfortable knowing my workplace was to be full of racists tonight. I don’t endorse Boris, but I do endorse #NeverCorbyn".
https://www.news.com.au/entertainme...e/news-story/feb93a5b1b8cde6b794ca03a82534dbf
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
I appreciate you weren’t being serious, but if I may be, what does have something to do with many of the cases of antisemitism highlighted by the BDBJ and others, is Labour MP’s criticising the state of Israel.
The big row about Labour not adopting the IHRA in full was because Labour did accept the IHRA definition but added a bit to make it clearer that criticism of the state of Israel was not in itself antisemitic.
I’m quite prepared to accept that I’m not in full possession of all the facts, and that there might be compelling evidence that those *highlighted are in fact racists and deserve all they get, but the evidence presented so far appears to be of people criticising the state of Israel, which is not antisemitic.
*I’m talking about those highlighted by the BDBJ, there are undoubtedly other lower profile cases of racist nutters, such as a holocaust deniers, who have no place in decent society and have been rightly dealt with.
If there is evidence, why isn’t it in the Rabbi’s rant? If Corbyn is such a threat, whereas the evidence? Has he come out with comments about people looking like “letter boxes’ or ‘bombers’ or having ‘watermelon smiles’, or being ‘pickaninnies’?
Frankiesays
Rats is life.
Momentum and other 'far Left' types are constantly telling Brexit voters that they're a bunch of racists, or even Neo Nazis, how ironic for them to be accused of the one thing that they define themselves against.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
hahahaha
Tony L
Administrator
There is no mutual exclusivity, both states can be true.
Fatmarley
"It appears my intelligence circuits have melted"
Do you understand the difference between "accused" and guilty?
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Total nonsense. How many people on pfm are members of Momentum and how many of those have called Brexit voters racist or nazis?
An accusation of something is not evidence that it’s true. To say it is is rather, er, facist.
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35451
Guest
I already agreed with you. But the salient point seems to be that yours or mine criteria of 'evidence' seems to be overridden by perceptions, further coloured by faith and emotion of church leaders. Facts and faith can make odd bedfellows. Ask Henry viii
The cynical might think that this is part of a well-orchestrated campaign to undermine JC and scupper his chances for once and all.
billo
pfm Member
Looking at the shape of her right now, I suspect that she has been the subject of some Russian interference
Really? He's perfectly entitled to his own view, he probably has a better call to represent the Jewish community than most. It is no different from the Arch Bishop of Canterbury airing his views, they may be more palatable to you?
Can't remember the chaps name speaking earlier on R4 but he said that he doesn't believe Corbyn is AS or racist (fully agree) but he has been slow to tackle the issue. This was a very reasonable view.
I think the current leadership attracts a certain brand of 'nutter' & they are a bit too slow in dealing with them so they start to flourish.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
It's the fact that he's lost all sense of proportion that tells me that this is just a show. "What will become of Jews and Judaism in Britain if the Labour Party forms the next government?" Honestly!
As I see it there are two problems with the Chief Rabbi's intervention, much as I agree with the sentiment behind what he says, and they are as follows:
1) The word "antisemitism" has been brought up so much in the last few years when discussing Corbyn's leadership of the Labour party that its impact has been dulled to the extent that all he has to do is hide behind a stock phrase that he wheels out every time this issue comes up, such as "I am against racism in all its forms and fought it all my life", etc. The issue then rolls off him like water off a duck's back, because I think the electorate are getting almost as tired of hearing the word "antisemitism" as they are the phrases "deliver Brexit" and "get Brexit done". It also allows Corbynistas all over the place to cry "MSM media smear" or demand that religious leaders should "butt out of politics", and so on.
2) Is Corbyn himself antisemitic? I have an uncle who has been a member of the Labour party for 30 years, and who served as a Borough councillor and and subsequently a County councillor for 19 of them. He told me he feels very much like an outsider looking in when he looks at the state of the Labour party now, and is fearful for its future under Corbyn's or a Corbynite leadership, but that being said, he told me that he and fellow Jewish Labour acquaintances do not go along with the idea that the Labour leader is an antisemite. So to be fair, I think the jury is still out on this one, but the optics don't look good. What sticks in my mind the most is the photo of him laying a wreath at the tomb of the terrorists who tortured and killed the Israeli Olympic team in Munich in 1972. The very idea that Corbyn could go on from doing something like that to walking into 10 Downing Street as Prime Minister of this country is something that quite frankly feels me with dread.
Whenever Corbyn is confronted with the question about antisemitism in the TV debates, he utters his well-rehearsed phrase, no doubt drilled into him by his backroom staff, about being an anti-racist all his life, and then shuts up and waits for the next question. It's almost robotic. Contrast that with the trace of empathy and humanity he showed when talking about a sick friend who had recently died, in reference to a question about the NHS. If only he was prepared to show a trace of such qualities and understanding behind the questioner's concern about antisemtism, or to acknowledge the possible impact his past actions (such as the wreath laying ceremony I refer to above) may have or have had on people's opinion of him, and appreciate the possible impact these could have on concerned members of the Jewish community who are most likely exceptionally worried about what the country would look like with Corbyn wielding the levers of power.
If he could manage this, maybe, just maybe, the continuing questions about antisemtism in the Labour party would start to peter out.
Make no mistake, I'm no more interested in Boris Johnson continuing as PM than any Labour supporters here, but unless Corbyn changes his tune, something I feel he is either too old and inflexible and unwilling to even contemplate, then the mere idea of voting Labour whilst he and his cohorts are part of the leadership is simply anathema on any political or moral grounds that I can think of.
1) The word "antisemitism" has been brought up so much in the last few years when discussing Corbyn's leadership of the Labour party that its impact has been dulled to the extent that all he has to do is hide behind a stock phrase that he wheels out every time this issue comes up, such as "I am against racism in all its forms and fought it all my life", etc. The issue then rolls off him like water off a duck's back, because I think the electorate are getting almost as tired of hearing the word "antisemitism" as they are the phrases "deliver Brexit" and "get Brexit done". It also allows Corbynistas all over the place to cry "MSM media smear" or demand that religious leaders should "butt out of politics", and so on.
2) Is Corbyn himself antisemitic? I have an uncle who has been a member of the Labour party for 30 years, and who served as a Borough councillor and and subsequently a County councillor for 19 of them. He told me he feels very much like an outsider looking in when he looks at the state of the Labour party now, and is fearful for its future under Corbyn's or a Corbynite leadership, but that being said, he told me that he and fellow Jewish Labour acquaintances do not go along with the idea that the Labour leader is an antisemite. So to be fair, I think the jury is still out on this one, but the optics don't look good. What sticks in my mind the most is the photo of him laying a wreath at the tomb of the terrorists who tortured and killed the Israeli Olympic team in Munich in 1972. The very idea that Corbyn could go on from doing something like that to walking into 10 Downing Street as Prime Minister of this country is something that quite frankly feels me with dread.
Whenever Corbyn is confronted with the question about antisemitism in the TV debates, he utters his well-rehearsed phrase, no doubt drilled into him by his backroom staff, about being an anti-racist all his life, and then shuts up and waits for the next question. It's almost robotic. Contrast that with the trace of empathy and humanity he showed when talking about a sick friend who had recently died, in reference to a question about the NHS. If only he was prepared to show a trace of such qualities and understanding behind the questioner's concern about antisemtism, or to acknowledge the possible impact his past actions (such as the wreath laying ceremony I refer to above) may have or have had on people's opinion of him, and appreciate the possible impact these could have on concerned members of the Jewish community who are most likely exceptionally worried about what the country would look like with Corbyn wielding the levers of power.
If he could manage this, maybe, just maybe, the continuing questions about antisemtism in the Labour party would start to peter out.
Make no mistake, I'm no more interested in Boris Johnson continuing as PM than any Labour supporters here, but unless Corbyn changes his tune, something I feel he is either too old and inflexible and unwilling to even contemplate, then the mere idea of voting Labour whilst he and his cohorts are part of the leadership is simply anathema on any political or moral grounds that I can think of.
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
I think it's worth remembering that Labour's problem is not that it's full of cross burning racists or people who want to build death camps but that it is institutionally racist. That is, the party is developing a culture and behaviour that fails to treat Jews as it treats others and we see this in things like its slow/poor handling of reports of antisemitism and how it allows situations like the Luciana Berger case. It is an entirely legitimate fear for Jews to wonder what would happen if such an organisation became the government even before we consider their history of being almost constantly on the receiving end of abuse, ethnic cleansings and genocides.
As regards Corbyn, I think his problem is not so much that he is an anti-semite but that he is just incapable of credibly dealing with the problem. Partly this is because he has such a long history full of questionable comments and associations but mostly it's because he is just a really, really bad politician and incapable of a complex political task like rebuilding trust with the Jewish community. Which is also his Brexit problem and generally my problem with him -- it's not that I think he is a racist, or a secret Brexiteer or a radical marxist but that he is just, well, terrible.
As regards Corbyn, I think his problem is not so much that he is an anti-semite but that he is just incapable of credibly dealing with the problem. Partly this is because he has such a long history full of questionable comments and associations but mostly it's because he is just a really, really bad politician and incapable of a complex political task like rebuilding trust with the Jewish community. Which is also his Brexit problem and generally my problem with him -- it's not that I think he is a racist, or a secret Brexiteer or a radical marxist but that he is just, well, terrible.
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