SNP - what are Scots thoughts?

[TheDecameron]

The only political party with the power to ‘destroy the Union’ is squatting in Downing St at the moment and they’re making an excellent job of it. What ever happens next the notion of a ‘United Kindom’ will wither on the vine and the draw from the EU will increase.

 

[Minio]

I blame the Tories. Divide and rule is their game.

I remember when they moved East Grinstead from East Sussex to West Sussex. Unforgivable. No referendum on that one.

No improvement in living standards either.

 

[hermit]

'Inclusive form of nationalism’. I've heard it all now! A special ’inclusive’ that says we don't want you England, instead we want a border between us with this separation to be made on the basis that we are Scottish and you are not. The vote to allow other residents to vote is no disguise or excuse otherwise. This is pure nationalism with England your bogey man which you use to stir up discontent and blame for your ills. Your gobbledygook double think is more horrifying!

It is a matter of fact that different types of nationalism exist. That this is news to you does not make it less of a fact. Ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism are two examples with very clear differences.

 

[gassor]

It's less murky than the other form of nationalism. My concern for Scotland is that it would only get over the line with help from the other version. It's there, living and breathing...and as we see in England, you only need a chink of political change for stuff like this to nose its way out of its rat hole.

I am not entirely convinced about Decameron's points. In 2014 he was voting for an agenda driven by Alex Salmond. And if anyone says he is more pro Scotland and civic nationalism than he is anti English, then I will never agree. So you are right Dec, your argument won't do much good. I wish the Jocks luck, though. I'd vote out if I was living there. But this is because I believe small, lean and free is better.

I'd forgotten how condescending I find the label "Jock". I'm too polite on here to say anymore.

 

[HairyHaggis]

"jock", "sweaty sock", "sweaties", "ginger" (though i'm not) ...had them all, but i don't dwell on it. life's too short. an inclusive scotland in europe is where we will/should end up. if we don't, we're in trouble.

 

[richardg]

I've been called a grifter on here. That is offensive, yet I am not bothered.

 

[Brian]

It is a matter of fact that different types of nationalism exist. That this is news to you does not make it less of a fact. Ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism are two examples with very clear differences.

Of course. And for the few unaware, Hugh linked to the wiki about that earlier when he discovered it.

That these different forms of nationalism exist, and that you ascribe the fluffy version to the SNP, does not mean Scotland is packed with cuddly nationalists rather than the sinister type.

 

[richardg]

"jock", "sweaty sock", "sweaties", "ginger" (though i'm not) ...had them all, but i don't dwell on it. life's too short. an inclusive scotland in europe is where we will/should end up. if we don't, we're in trouble.

When you leave the EU with UK, then leave the UK, then get back into the EU, and if the French kick me out, I'm coming over.

 

[hermit]

Of course. And for the few unaware, Hugh linked to the wiki about that earlier when he discovered it.

That these different forms of nationalism exist, and that you ascribe the fluffy version to the SNP, does not mean Scotland is packed with cuddly nationalists rather than the sinister type.

I'm not denying that there are people who hold unpleasant racist opinions in Scotland. However I don't believe anglophobia is a major issue. The real problems are with anti-Irish racism which is referred to as 'sectarianism' in Scotland and is aimed at Scottish people of Irish Catholic descent. However I don't think it is as big a problem as it once was. Nor is anglophobia.

The main point though is that the SNP resolutely promote a civic and inclusive type of nationalism and refuse to pander to racists of any stripe. I don't think anyone could claim the same of Farage and his UKIP and Brexit parties that he uses to whip up English nationalism.

 

[richardg]

I'm not denying that there are people who hold unpleasant racist opinions in Scotland. However I don't believe anglophobia is a major issue.

From this side it feels bigger than that. The ABE campaign every time England is playing in a football tournament is not great. It feels extremely anglophobic. If people here get offended about the use of words like Jock, how do you think things like ABE will come across? Its not even a tiny portion of supporters, it seems like nearly everyone.

 

[TheDecameron]

Excellent news- game on for a new Independence referendum.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ndependence-referendum?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

She did not mention polls that indicate the Scottish National party would win more than 50 of Scotland’s 59 Commons seats, but said she wanted to be prepared. “We intend to offer the people of Scotland the choice of a better and more positive future as an independent nation,” she said.

 

[hermit]

From this side it feels bigger than that. The ABE campaign every time England is playing in a football tournament is not great. It feels extremely anglophobic. If people here get offended about the use of words like Jock, how do you think things like ABE will come across? Its not even a tiny portion of supporters, it seems like nearly everyone.

I take your point but I think perhaps football is a special case where people feel it is ok because it is sport and not the real world. More likely it is because the English media still go on about 1966 and we fear if you win it again we'll never hear the end of it. More likely still, it's because we're a bit shit and you're not.

FWVLIW, football aside I've never come across any anti-English sentiment in any of my work places or among my friends and acquaintances. When I worked in London I was subject to piss-taking about the football or my accent but it was all gentle ribbing and in good humour. I would hope that English people living and working in Scotland could say the same.

 

[richardg]

Excellent news- game on for a new Independence referendum.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ndependence-referendum?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

She did not mention polls that indicate the Scottish National party would win more than 50 of Scotland’s 59 Commons seats, but said she wanted to be prepared. “We intend to offer the people of Scotland the choice of a better and more positive future as an independent nation,” she said.

Exciting stuff. I hope it works out this time. And that is not loaded with the old England could do without Welfare Scotland sentiment.

 

[TheDecameron]

Thanks Rich.

 

[gassor]

However I don't think it is as big a problem as it once was. Nor is anglophobia.

Open anglophobia appears to have subsided since the IndyRef. However, I can assure you that sectarianism has not, in fact, it has been increasing over the past few years. Witness the scenes in Govan last Friday or the UEFA sanctions handed out TWICE against Rangers FC in the last 2 weeks. Then there are the hundreds of Orange Walks across Glasgow every summer culminating last year in a priest being spat on outside his church as he spoke with parishioners.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-49526876
https://www.thenational.scot/politics/16345692.end-the-annual-shame-of-orange-order-marches/

 

[skito]

So, let’s see how this goes.

Re: bold above. Why? Explain please.

You have contributed absolutely nothing in your previous two responses except petty insult yet have the gall to ask me to elucidate further on this? But let's see, perhaps it's because we are already unified in all ways geographically, administratively as well as through the majority democratic will! There has been a long standing problem in Ireland which exists still to this day and includes a country divided geographically. Your nationalist foray is completely unnecessary whereas some may still see further resolution to an existing longstanding problem in Ireland . The nationalists here are hell-bent on breaking up and causing division to a 300 year old peaceful union conversely to the Irish situation which is seeing reunification as perhaps the final resolution of previous division.

 

[hermit]

Open anglophobia appears to have subsided since the IndyRef. However, I can assure you that sectarianism has not, in fact, it has been increasing over the past few years. Witness the scenes in Govan last Friday or the UEFA sanctions handed out TWICE against Rangers FC in the last 2 weeks. Then there are the hundreds of Orange Walks across Glasgow every summer culminating last year in a priest being spat on outside his church as he spoke with parishioners.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-49526876
https://www.thenational.scot/politics/16345692.end-the-annual-shame-of-orange-order-marches/

I concur completely Donald and there is no doubt that anti-Irish racism is an intractable problem and imo much worse than any residual anglophobia. I should have expanded on my point. I think in the past it was difficult for people with an Irish Catholic heritage to get certain jobs or to get promoted within certain organisations. One example being the old Rangers FC who wouldn't employ Catholics for most of the last century. Thankfully those days seem to be behind us.

 

[JimmyB]

I think in the past it was difficult for people with an Irish Catholic heritage to get certain jobs or to get promoted within certain organisations.

From what I've seen, it worked both ways which no doubt exacerbated the issue even more. I don't think either side were/are angels in any regard and to me, they really needed to get their heads smacked together and told to focus on common ground rather than past differences which are meaningless today.
Maybe that's why Scotland is such a tolerant and open country...we're too busy with our own in-fighting to worry about xenophobia.

 

[gassor]

From what I've seen, it worked both ways which no doubt exacerbated the issue even more. I don't think either side were/are angels in any regard and to me, they really needed to get their heads smacked together and told to focus on common ground rather than past differences which are meaningless today.
Maybe that's why Scotland is such a tolerant and open country...we're too busy with our own in-fighting to worry about xenophobia.

Worked both ways? Where were the signs outside workplaces saying 'No Protestants'?

 

[JimmyB]

From not being part of either faction, protestant or catholic, I think you'd find stories on both sides of the divide, signs or no signs, a lot hinges on a name. Luckily I am maybe too young to have seen signs such as those but growing up I got sick of seeing 'F*ck the IRA' and on the next wall 'F*ck the Pope'.
Neither side can take the moral high ground these days as far as I can see.