Corbyn at it again over Iran blowing up Oil tankers
- Thread starter Rodrat
- Start date
Enfield boy
pfm Member
Or Trump/Netanyahu/Saud, to justify a new "war on turrrr".
Joe
pfm Member
You keep banging away at Brian demanding to know how he voted in the referendum.
If it were me I would tell you 'it's none of your business' and so ' mind your own f**king business.
Brian is just too polite.
How he voted is his business.. this country has secret ballots . Secret for the very purpose of stopping people being intimidated by people like you.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
It’s also about criticising the actions of others (entirely reasonable) while cloaking your own ( which is not). The “sacred trust of the polling booth” stuff is just another way of keeping the cloak up.
ff1d1l
pfm Member
17.5M peoples vote is being allowed to take a population of 68M to what is acknowledged by those who believe the factual, rather than the fantastic, as a worse place.
You may not like this, but it is a fact nontheless.
SteveG
pfm Member
Last time people were voting No as they were told it was the only way Scotland could stay in the EU. Not sure what lies will be told by the No parties (which are rather similar in nature to the Brexit supporting parties as it happens) next time, but I'm assuming it'll relate to access to the pound (after Brexit I'd rather have the Euro) and the market in England which, with a Labour/Tory/Brexit/UKIP no-deal Brexit in place, will perhaps be the equivalent of a charity shop so probably no loss.
SteveG
pfm Member
If Brian was always a Leaver then he'd have said it, so I'm happy to assume that he was originally a Remain voter but has changed his mind because his Messiah said he should. That indicates he has about the same level of principle as your average LibDem MP.
Seanm
pfm Member
More logic here.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
I just want to hear about “a Brexit that works for the many, not the few” Sean. Can you sketch out the scene?
Joe
pfm Member
I think we all worked out how Brian voted but that is not the point. He still retains the right to not say publicly. To keep demanding for over two years that he 'fess' up" is a bit much.
If his position is clear why keep pestering ?
Seanm
pfm Member
"Working" here means respecting a political decision without blowing up the country, and ensuring that the right people take the hit. It's admittedly not the stuff of Jed Bartlet speeches. Details can be had over on another spittle-flecked anti-Corbyn thread: repeating them here would only offer an opportunity for our most sensible members to explain why, actually, a very soft Brexit is identical to a no deal Brexit.
But we're taking up bandwidth here. I'd like to keep this thread OT so that we can identify the exact point that majority opinion turns to "Well, maybe this time it will work!" with regards to pointless wars of aggression in the Middle East.
Joe
pfm Member
You may not like democracy sometimes either.
You keep juxtaposing the 17.5M against the whole population number as if to give it some kind of moral legitimacy. It does not.
Governments have been elected by less voters too.
There will always be a relatively small number of voters who decide the fate of the whole population of the country . ( we also don't give five year olds the vote )
There could be instances where one vote by one member of Parliament can have a truly momentous impact upon the country. That member of Parliament could have won their constituency by only 5 votes. You could then claim that the fate of the country was determined by only five people...hell, we could even name them ! . You could keep this reductive thinking up ad infinitum .
Democracy is imperfect... we just have to live with that.
Tony L
Administrator
Are you implying it isn’t there or close to it already? If the political right want a pointless war as deflection I’m sure they will get one whether the rest of us like it or not. By saying that at this point I doubt there would be a parliamentary majority for getting involved. I’d certainly expect LD, SNP, Green and PC to block it, so it hangs on how many Tories would abstain and how many Labour would support. I’d be surprised if there was any appetite given how screwed our economy will be under Brexit.
ff1d1l
pfm Member
You are dead right. It does not. But not in the way you mean.
And I fail to see what your argument is trying to achieve giving instances of small majorities being enacted. Of the population, all of whom will be affected, 17.5 of 68 is a numerous, but proportionally insignificant minority.
You will say it was promised the result would be implemented. Well, that was not only deeply flawed in terms of worldwide referendum law and practice, but was a deeply, deeply stupid guarantee to give.
As you're so keen on your version of democracy, I'm presuming it includes a ratifying vote?
Seanm
pfm Member
Murdoch and his meat puppets never met a war they didn't like so you can expect full-throated support from the Tories and the rest of the right, every single time. What you've got to worry about are the sensible centrists, the likes of David Aaronovitch and Nick Cohen, arguing for carpet-bombing on feminist grounds or whatever. Ever since some branding guru came up with the term "humanitarian intervention" it's been liberals who've done a lot of the heavy lifting for war. The muted response to the US drumming on Iran suggests we might have reached the limits of that but I note that The Guardian at least are still hedging. As I've said before the liberal press is heavily invested in war and a lot of careers are going south if the default position in this country becomes "No f____ing way are we climbing on board with these bloodthirsty savages and WTF is even wrong with you suggesting we might?"
Tony L
Administrator
The Guardian is the ‘liberal press’ unless you count tabloid bullshit such as the Mirror or things no one ever buys like the Morning Star!
FWIW I have far more to fear from Labour, who have many rogue hard-right MPs (see Brexit), than the Lib Dems or other progressives who consistently vote against US regime change wars. Labour have always had a nasty nationalist/imperialist element, it is something I have recognised basically forever and one reason I’ve never been a regular voter. They are national warriors as well as class warriors, and I am neither. I marched against Labour back in the Iraq days, and I won’t ever forget that.
PS I was not opposed to Iraq I (I had a friend working in IT in Kuwait at the time so was quite aware of the situation). That one wasn’t a regime-change thing.
FWIW I have far more to fear from Labour, who have many rogue hard-right MPs (see Brexit), than the Lib Dems or other progressives who consistently vote against US regime change wars. Labour have always had a nasty nationalist/imperialist element, it is something I have recognised basically forever and one reason I’ve never been a regular voter. They are national warriors as well as class warriors, and I am neither. I marched against Labour back in the Iraq days, and I won’t ever forget that.
PS I was not opposed to Iraq I (I had a friend working in IT in Kuwait at the time so was quite aware of the situation). That one wasn’t a regime-change thing.
Seanm
pfm Member
Yes, but when it comes to setting agendas and developing a position you can also include The New Statesman, as well as liberal voices in the Murdoch rags and elsewhere. For the last 20 years the centrist position established by these platforms and voices has been very macho, very got-to-get-your-hands-dirty and statecraft-means-dealing-with-grey-areas.
In party terms Labour's old right were always pro-war, new right too. The new left tradition now in the ascendent is not.
The Lib Dems were equivocal on Iraq, and in an interesting way: they were never against the war as such, they just felt that the case had not been made fully by the time of the vote; the vote having been won, they committed to war wholeheartedly - because you've got to respect the result of a vote, don't you?
Tony L
Administrator
...except it isn’t in the ascendency, the Labour party is clearly crashing and burning at every test!