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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+13)?

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ff1d1l said:
No, you didn't help enact tory policy from the start.
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So Labour do nothing, we leave with no deal, and a large part of their constituency sees their living standards plummet.

If we’re leaving the important thing IMHO is we don’t leave on the basis of no deal. If Corbyn doesn’t participate in discussions that’s still on the cards. Yes I know he’s said he’ll take part if no deal isn’t an option, but I’ve seen nothing in Maybot’s character that makes me think she’ll accept that.
 
ff1d1l said:
Regarding the backstop.
Short answer is, that the backstop is not a red line, its a legal necessity. And necessary to peace in N.I.
As was said, as I pointed out in an earlier post, prior to the ref, and future difficulties it would make were, like much other stuff that has come to pass, were branded project fear.
Maybe time for Project Chickens Coming Home to Roost.
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Agree. The BS is a necessity.

So, do you think if May abandons No deal for the time being, extends the consultation period and the house (of all parties) agrees the backstop will stay and will be included in any future deal that would be a starting point for negotiations?
 
We need to see what emerges in the plan B motion (not much) and amendments (perhaps more interestingly) next (in the absence of anything else)...
 
ff1d1l said:
The smart move would have been to have gone, then called a press conference to criticise Mays inflexibility at not taking no deal off the table, and saying no further progress can be made and she has his number if she changes her mind.

Sturgeon does it too and it looks very like a consensus, which would play well.
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That looks a bit pointlessly nuanced, and time-wastey, and weak. "I'm not talking to you until you put the matches and and petrol down" sounds better to me than "Yes I know she's waving that petrol can around but I'll just go and see what she wants". Her offer is really not worth dignifying, and whether he points that out now or tomorrow or next week after she's run the clock down further, the Sensibles are still going to be united in praising her surprising last minute flexibility and Corbyn's failure to put the country first. There really is no point playing to that crowd, and no point pretending any longer that there's room for any kind of consensus here. The Tories have spent the last two and a half years spelling it out for us: the only way through this is through their charred remains. The Conservative PArty want to set something on fire, and it's either going to be themselves or the country. They are close to doing the former. All we can do is keep the pressure on until they actually do it. Why pretend we're dealing with rational people here?
 
Taking this a step further I can not imagine the majority of the house objecting to look at working rights policies and protection as is high on the agenda of Labour requisites if what Corbyn said is to be believed.

That's two issues potentially out of the way ...
 
drummerman said:
Agree. The BS is a necessary.

So, do you think if May abandons No deal for the time being, extends the consultation period and the house (of all parties) agrees the backstop will stay and will be included in any future deal that would be a starting point for negotiations?
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Do you have some fantasy about the backstop you want to tell us all about? I'd just ignore it, as:
The EU aren't going to move on it
Eire aren't going to move on it
The DUP aren't going to move on it.

Nothing is on the table re the backstop.
 
Stunsworth said:
So Labour do nothing, we leave with no deal, and a large part of their constituency sees their living standards plummet.

If we’re leaving the important thing IMHO is we don’t leave on the basis of no deal. If Corbyn doesn’t participate in discussions that’s still on the cards. Yes I know he’s said he’ll take part if no deal isn’t an option, but I’ve seen nothing in Maybot’s character that makes me think she’ll accept that.
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Stuff being done in the HOC is largely not being done by labour front bench. That is not to say stuff won't get done. Little of the regaining of parliamentary democracy which has been achieved so far has been down to labour.
 
ff1d1l said:
Stuff being done in the HOC is largely not being done by labour front bench. That is not to say stuff won't get done. Little of the regaining of parliamentary democracy which has been achieved so far has been down to labour.
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I doubt the soft Tories would vote with the Labour front bench
 
ff1d1l said:
Do you have some fantasy about the backstop you want to tell us all about? I'd just ignore it, as:
The EU aren't going to move on it
Eire aren't going to move on it
The DUP aren't going to move on it.

Nothing is on the table re the backstop.
Click to expand...

So what is your proposed solution to start progressive talks? What compromises need to happen?
 
Seanm said:
That looks a bit pointlessly nuanced, and time-wastey, and weak. "I'm not talking to you until you put the matches and and petrol down" sounds better to me than "Yes I know she's waving that petrol can around but I'll just go and see what she wants". Her offer is really not worth dignifying, and whether he points that out now or tomorrow or next week after she's run the clock down further, the Sensibles are still going to be united in praising her surprising last minute flexibility and Corbyn's failure to put the country first. There really is no point playing to that crowd, and no point pretending any longer that there's room for any kind of consensus here. The Tories have spent the last two and a half years spelling it out for us: the only way through this is through their charred remains. The Conservative PArty want to set something on fire, and it's either going to be themselves or the country. They are close to doing the former. All we can do is keep the pressure on until they actually do it. Why pretend we're dealing with rational people here?
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Ahh, the totally unexpected "don't play to the sensibles" trope. Wow, you surprised me there.
I imagine come a GE the "don't play to the sensibles" trope will figure largely in labour policy and canvassing?
Good luck with that.
 
drummerman said:
So what is your proposed solution to start progressive talks? What compromises need to happen?
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Parliament needs to realise its at an impasse, and the way out is a ref. Progressive talks need to realise that, and talk about implementing.
If it goes remain, it all goes away, if it goes leave, leave have a mandate to pull whatever batshit the ref says they can do. Everyone happy.
 
As someone that might swing Lib Dem / Labour at any time, Corbyn has made me swing back to my default position of Lib Dem. What a bellend for not going to talk to her.

He could have slashed her throat and taken one for the team.
 
ff1d1l said:
Parliament needs to realise its at an impasse, and the way out is a ref. Progressive talks need to realise that, and talk about implementing.
If it goes remain, it all goes away, if it goes leave, leave have a mandate to pull whatever batshit the ref says they can do. Everyone happy.
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= Tories need to vote themselves out of existence.

I agree that that is ultimately the only thing that will stop them setting fire to the country, but come on, the 2nd ref ship has sailed. That isn't going to be the thing that does it.

Sturgeon has fallen in behind Corbyn. Meanwhile it seems that the EU has made agreement between Corbyn and May a condition of extending the deadline. Pressure's on. We're close to a split. Bye Bye Tories.
 
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