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Corbyn sceptics, what do you think of him now (part II)?

jackbarron said:
Suggest you listen to the radio or watch the television more closely.

Corbyn made a couple of speeches about the EU in the last two weeks before the Referendum. In these he specifically outlined the reasons to stay in.

Why should he have teamed up with Johnson, who was trying to stab him in the back every chance he could?

It makes me laugh that the right-wing of Labour are hooking up with Remain Tories to blame Corbyn and the socialists for Brexit. It's pathetic. They should get their facts right.

Corbyn shouldn't bend to the wishes of the Blairites in the coming months. They are the people who ruined the Labour Party. If they don't agree with his policy ideas, they can leave.

Jack
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Corbyn gave Johnson the Job ! and then left him out to dry .Steven Kinock reckons he had one meeting with Corbyn's people to discuss Labour's EU referendum campaign . Not an issue for them . I have left the Labour Party . Ha Ho !
 
Labour's policy on Brexit is very realistic. The country voted to opt out of the EU. The Party are following the wishes of the Leave voters, but in their own manner.

Corbyn and Labour want the final document to be voted on in Parliament. This will give MPs a chance to kick Brexit into the long grass. This is what Theresa 'SS' May is most scared of, hence her tedious no deal is better than a bad deal mantra.

Should this happen, Brexit could eventually be cancelled. The Referendum was advisory and not legally binding. Plus some Europeans are now saying Brexit doesn't have to happen, even though Article 50 has been invoked.

Corbyn and many in Labour are playing a smart long game over Brexit. No doubt the PLP backstabbers will start moaning about Labour not having a Brexit strategy. They'll probably team up with the Remain Tories ... just like the have on pfm funnily enough.

Jack
 
richgilb said:
What do you mean?

This is the 1st line:

'Labour accepts the referendum result'

And this is in the 3rd paragraph:

'We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain.'
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Meaningless platitude. Might as well be in favour or world peace and mama's apple pie. ;)

Retaining the benefits of the single market and customs union is pretty much the main reason to be in the EU. There is the rub, to be in those you have to accept FOM. That is incompatible with your first line.

It's rather like saying you wish to retain a child without getting pregnant. It is not an option to retain those two without FOM and if you do, you may as well remain in the EU, because your leavers (which both the Tories and Labour are running scared of) wanted immigration reduced above anything else. Corbyn will have to choose at some point, which part of his new support to piss off. He won't like that, being all things to all men is much easier.
 
jackbarron said:
Corbyn and Labour want the final document to be voted on in Parliament. This will give MPs a chance to kick Brexit into the long grass. This is what Theresa 'SS' May is most scared of, hence her tedious no deal is better than a bad deal mantra.

Should this happen, Brexit could eventually be cancelled. The Referendum was advisory and not legally binding. Plus some Europeans are now saying Brexit doesn't have to happen, even though Article 50 has been invoked.
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Now THAT would be a position, a brave one and one that needs courageous leadership. I wouldn't hold your breath.
 
adamk said:
Can't the Blairites just follow their principles and defy the whip as and when their conscience dictates, just like Corbyn did many times in the past, or is such a principled position not allowed now Corbyn is leader.
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Adam, you have misunderstood the culture. When JC followed his principles, defied whips, campaigned against the leadership - it was couragious and dignified class heroism.

If anyone does that now that he is leader, they are disloyal scum who should fvck off to the Tories where they belong.

It's known as the 'Hypocritic' oath. :)
 
SteveS1 said:
Now THAT would be a position, a brave one and one that needs courageous leadership. I wouldn't hold your breath.
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i don't think that would particularly be the case. all it would require would be the open and honest expounding of the consequences of what we are currently doing. a clear and understandable (by our highly educated electorate) explanation of the possible outcomes. no guessing needed. preferably by an open and honest politician...if such an animal could be found who was prepared to put country and democracy before party politics.
 
SteveS1 said:
Adam, you have misunderstood the culture. When JC followed his principles, defied whips, campaigned against the leadership - it was couragious and dignified class heroism.

If anyone does that now that he is leader, they are disloyal scum who should fvck off to the Tories where they belong.

It's known as the 'Hypocratic' oath. :)
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Er...why?
 
HairyHaggis said:
i don't think that would particularly be the case. all it would require would be the open and honest expounding of the consequences of what we are currently doing. a clear and understandable (by our highly educated electorate) explanation of the possible outcomes. no guessing needed. preferably by an open and honest politician...if such an animal could be found who was prepared to put country and democracy before party politics.
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Agree. That last bit is why I'm not holding my breath.
 
SteveS1 said:
Meaningless platitude. Might as well be in favour or world peace and mama's apple pie. ;)

Retaining the benefits of the single market and customs union is pretty much the main reason to be in the EU. There is the rub, to be in those you have to accept FOM. That is incompatible with your first line.

It's rather like saying you wish to retain a child without getting pregnant. It is not an option to retain those two without FOM and if you do, you may as well remain in the EU, because your leavers (which both the Tories and Labour are running scared of) wanted immigration reduced above anything else. Corbyn will have to choose at some point, which part of his new support to piss off. He won't like that, being all things to all men is much easier.
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Not really.

From a remainer's perspective, it is good news, as he is softening the blow.

From a leaver's perspective, it is good news. You get to deal with the EU and the rest of the world without being told what you can and cannot do.

From a racist's perspective, who gives a shit....
 
richgilb said:
Not really.

From a remainer's perspective, it is good news, as he is softening the blow.

From a leaver's perspective, it is good news. You get to deal with the EU and the rest of the world without being told what you can and cannot do.

From a racist's perspective, who gives a shit....
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Sorry, which part of that deal not being on the table from the EU is being missed? There is no softened blow, if we are out.
 
merlin said:
PsB, the whole United Kingdom is torn apart by Brexit. Families are torn apart by Brexit. It is a natural reflection of society that Political Parties will be.

If you were to take a national poll today, in light of the lies being exposed and claims being unraveled, I suspect the result would be closer to the Labour Party's position than it would be to the Conservative/UKIP one. That is just a supposition though - no more.

Regardless, it is an issue that has split the nation down the middle and parties should be reflect that and encourage continued discussion and debate within their ranks.
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This is all true, but that doesn't make Labour's position (essentially limit FoM in some unspecified way while retaining unfettered access to the single market) any more realistic than BoJo's "cake and eat it" line. It is essentially the same UK-centric view of the issue, and were Labour in power it would fail for the same reason.
 
PsB said:
This is all true, but that doesn't make Labour's position (essentially limit FoM in some unspecified way while retaining unfettered access to the single market) any more realistic than BoJo's "cake and eat it" line. It is essentially the same UK-centric view of the issue, and were Labour in power it would fail for the same reason.
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Absolutely.

It needs somebody to break ranks and basically lead on the fact that 'cake and eat it' options are not going to cut it and to proceed with Brexit will be a disaster and should be re-thought with the benefit of some actual data rather than projections. How much time and how much damage needs to be behind us to focus minds away from fantasy economics, is an open question.
 
SteveS1 said:
Too quick off the mark - hypocritic. Spell checker fail.
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The Hippocratic Oath is taken by doctors:

I swear by Apollo the Healer, by Asclepius, by Hygieia, by Panacea, and by all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will carry out, according to my ability and judgment, this oath and this indenture.

To hold my teacher in this art equal to my own parents; to make him partner in my livelihood; when he is in need of money to share mine with him; to consider his family as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they want to learn it, without fee or indenture; to impart precept, oral instruction, and all other instruction to my own sons, the sons of my teacher, and to indentured pupils who have taken the physician’s oath, but to nobody else.

I will use treatment to help the sick according to my ability and judgment, but never with a view to injury and wrong-doing. Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion. But I will keep pure and holy both my life and my art. I will not use the knife, not even, verily, on sufferers from stone, but I will give place to such as are craftsmen therein.

Into whatsoever houses I enter, I will enter to help the sick, and I will abstain from all intentional wrong-doing and harm, especially from abusing the bodies of man or woman, bond or free. And whatsoever I shall see or hear in the course of my profession, as well as outside my profession in my intercourse with men, if it be what should not be published abroad, I will never divulge, holding such things to be holy secrets.
Now if I carry out this oath, and break it not, may I gain for ever reputation among all men for my life and for my art; but if I transgress it and forswear myself, may the opposite befall me.[ey affirm that they will do no harm, amongst other vows.

Mind you, a doctor could just maybe help with a sense of humour bypass.
 
ff1d1l said:
The Hippocratic Oath is taken by doctors:

I swear by Apollo the Healer, by Asclepius, by Hygieia, by Panacea, and by all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will carry out, according to my ability and judgment, this oath and this indenture.

To hold my teacher in this art equal to my own parents; to make him partner in my livelihood; when he is in need of money to share mine with him; to consider his family as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they want to learn it, without fee or indenture; to impart precept, oral instruction, and all other instruction to my own sons, the sons of my teacher, and to indentured pupils who have taken the physician’s oath, but to nobody else.

I will use treatment to help the sick according to my ability and judgment, but never with a view to injury and wrong-doing. Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion. But I will keep pure and holy both my life and my art. I will not use the knife, not even, verily, on sufferers from stone, but I will give place to such as are craftsmen therein.

Into whatsoever houses I enter, I will enter to help the sick, and I will abstain from all intentional wrong-doing and harm, especially from abusing the bodies of man or woman, bond or free. And whatsoever I shall see or hear in the course of my profession, as well as outside my profession in my intercourse with men, if it be what should not be published abroad, I will never divulge, holding such things to be holy secrets.
Now if I carry out this oath, and break it not, may I gain for ever reputation among all men for my life and for my art; but if I transgress it and forswear myself, may the opposite befall me.[ey affirm that they will do no harm, amongst other vows.

Mind you, a doctor could just maybe help with a sense of humour bypass.
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Indeed. My this has got a long way from a simple point about Corbyn supporters with double standards when it comes to dealing with rebels.
 
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