Muslim women are not allowed to wear Burka at the shore in France

[Still]

The sample of burkini wearers from all beach and sea users. Obviously.

That is the available sample, but if it's so obvious why did you previously refer to the UK, whereas now you are talking about all users?

You do seem rather confused about hydrodynamics.

You appear to be projecting.

I regularly use a diving skin with hood, which is similar to a burkini.
Recently I was diving in a group which included a muslim family, and the mother used a burkini.

The head of the dive operation (Mike) was a Master Instructor/Course Director with over 20 years experience/9250 logged dives.
He was extremely intolerant of anything that might adversely affect diver safety and led many of our dives, but no issues with use of burkini, or diving skin.
That didn't surprise me, but might be a shock for the ignorant.

No I haven't.

Yes you have.

And not related to anything I've written.

Yes it is.

And what about the muslim women that know that doing what they are told is best for them? Do you tolerate that with equanimity? Do you deny it?

Different subject, although without irony you have been telling Muslim women what's best for them up thread.
No doubt you don't wish to introduce red herring, so why don't you start a thread on the topic?

I pointed at your illustration of a burkini, are you now backtracking? Not suitable for swimming.

Do you have any experience of designing water sports wear?
It is designed for the purpose, but perhaps you know better than all swim wear designers, as well as those who happen to be Muslim women?

I then offered an example of (presumably) muslim women in water covered in even less appropriate clothing.

Presumptions, like assumptions, are the mother of all fcuk ups.
This is what happens when one hunts for stuff on the internet without understanding.

It's quite clearly not designed for swimming. You can get swim suits that completely cover, and swim caps that cover the head. Designed for purpose. Banned in competition. Not burkinis.

Denial is the next stage. It's not competitive wear, but perhaps you feel the need to clutch at straws.

Anyway this is off point. If muslim women want to emphasise their separation from their adopted culture that's a cultural problem. But it's not fixed by banning their posturing.

For someone who claims to be a liberal, that's remarkably intolerant.
Considering the intent and profile of the designer you are showing yourself to be extremely foolish on the subject too.
Puzzling that you claim to be concerned for the safety of those wearing burkinis participating in water sports.
But you can't be bothered/are incapable of understanding the facts, even when the information is at the end of your nose!


With the sun and surf an integral part of the Australian lifestyle, Zanetti designed the swimsuit in 2004 so Muslim women, who choose to wear a head covering like the hijab, could participate in water activities and other sports.
"The burkini was designed for freedom, flexibility and confidence. It was designed to integrate into Australian society," she said in a phone interview with the Thomson Reuters Foundation from Sydney.

Aheda Zanetti (L), designer of the Burkini swimsuit, adjusts one of the swimsuits on model Salwa Elrashid at her fashion store in Sydney, August 23, 2016. REUTERS/Jason Reed

Australian muslim swimming instructor Fadila Chafic wears her full-length 'burkina' swimsuit during a swimming lesson with her children Taaleen (R) and Ibrahim at swimming pool in Sydney, August 23, 2016. REUTERS/Jason Reed

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-religion-burqa-designer-idUSKCN10Z27C?il=0

 

[davidsrsb]

"It's not competitive wear, but perhaps you feel the need to clutch at straws"
They might not be for competition, but some of the women wearing them fly past me in my condo pool

 

[Still]

I take it you didn't feel the need to rescue them from imminent drowning.

 

[vuk]

be oppressed in style and remain competitive!

paul is completely right about this being a social problem, not a legislative one. that said, given how the EU loves regulations, perhaps it could ban calling/labeling certain garments swimwear if particular safety criteria are not met.


vuk.

 

[rally]

On channel one the commendation says that no matter what will be the supreme court decision on Sunday, in the elections next spring Sarkozy supports the law to forbid Burkini, but what is more important, Marine Le Pen will be a strong enough political power to support this too. This will also influence religious Jews and Christians in France.

Arye

Sarkozy is jewish, correct?

Police Scotland uniform to include Muslim hijab

 

[Still]

vuk

I agree cheap knock-offs could well be dangerous, but that applies to an awful lot of product and why [BORING]standards are important[/BORING]

e.g. http://news.sky.com/story/1116004/apple-investigates-after-iphone-5-user-dies

Turned out the cause was a third-party adaptor: http://news.sky.com/story/apple-offers-charger-trade-in-over-safety-fears-10438096

John

 

[DonQuixote99]

Interesting comment there. I have often wondered why it is acceptable generally to attack and criminalize the whole of the Jewish population of the world for the few crimes of the Jewish state, but cannot attack the Muslim population in a similar manner for the atrocities carried out by the Nutjobs who claim to represent Islam, even against their own. I await the forthcoming ban.

BS. There is no 'OK' to attack and criminalize the whole of the Jewish population.

 

[ariegur]

Sarkozy is jewish, correct?

Police Scotland uniform to include Muslim hijab

Sure. But this is a secrete. How did you figure it out?

Arye

 

[merlin]

Anyone who does the former (blames all Jews for the actions of Israel) is a bigot.

Anyone who does the latter (blames all Muslims for the actions of Islamic terrorists) is a bigot.

I try my best to do neither. It's not rocket science is it?

+1

The annoying thing is that attacks on the policies of the Jewish State instigate claims of anti semitism from PFM'ers who really should know better.

The hypocrisy from some of them in this thread is clear for all to see and I feel it merits highlighting.

 

[Bananahead]

Please can someone show me the regulation. I am concerned that mountains are being made.

 

[Minstrel SE]

Am I going to ban it...No

However most of you are skirting around the issue.

Its heavy religious symbolism and a symbol of the oppression of women. Not just my opinion...its the oppression of women. I dont care if she wants to do it for religion or her man...I find the odd reasons for covering up distasteful. I need make no excuse for that

Im an athiest and Im not avoiding these issues. I dont like religious symbolism from any section of the world community. I can fully understand how the wearing of these garments upsets people.

I dont ask my wife to cover up and nor would I expect her to. It makes us completely different from these people in a very fundamental way. Thats the difference we are talking about. Different religions actually divide people which is a fundamental issue you should all be addressing.

Do I tolerate it all ...yes...so dont start your PC police nonsense with me. Wear whatever you want within reason but it doesnt mean I will relate to you and it puts barriers up immediately. Start spouting religion at me and I will walk off

Most of you are so scared of getting to the real issues that you are discussing the merits of swimwear or suncream. Its ridiculous and why threads like this dont really get discussed on PFM.

They get so deep that Im not sure it should be even started on PFM. Never discuss religion and politics but I cant avoid the nonsense on this thread any longer

 

[Joe Hutch]

They look very silly. That's all I'm prepared to say on the matter.

 

[PaulMB]

Interesting that while most of the French politicians and mayors seem to be in favour of banning the bur-kini on French beaches, the Italian political leaders who have spoken out have almost all defended the right of any citizen to wear what they like at the seaside.

This is probably because there are many more Moslems in France than in Italy, and your average non-Moslem Frenchman/woman arriving at their favourite beach and finding it dotted with Moslem women in bur-kinis might feel that their country had been invaded by an alien culture. Add to that the recent, unprecedented and very dramatic spate of terrorist attacks in the name of Islam, the general feeling of danger and insecurity, and the whole thing is easily explained. It is a visual thing, in a sense; people in a French beach resort want to see holiday makers in swimsuits, not in things that look like frogmen's suits and implicitly declare "we are of a different culture."

With the politicians, eager as is natural, to get votes at the next elections, wanting to appear as defenders of a liberal and secular French culture.

Much less of a problem in the UK, given the weather.

 

[davidsrsb]

Interesting that while most of the French politicians and mayors seem to be in favour of banning the bur-kini on French beaches, the Italian political leaders who have spoken out have almost all defended the right of any citizen to wear what they like at the seaside.

Something to do with France having strong Fascist tendancies?
Italy fell out with Mussolini and never wanted to go back

 

[PaulMB]

Something to do with France having strong Fascist tendancies?
Italy fell out with Mussolini and never wanted to go back

Interesting. France certainly has a stronger sense of national identity than Italy, combined with a stronger feeling for secularism as a pre-condition for a liberal, democratic society. Italy is used to being strongly influenced by the Catholic church, and its politicians have for hundreds of years taken "The Church" into account as a major political force.

As for Fascism in the narrow sense, it was invented in Italy, ran the country for 20-odd years, attempted take-overs after WW2, and still lingers as romance and legend in the minds of many "enthusiasts." In France I get the feeling it is more a question of strong nationalism and fear of cultural adulteration. Anti-Semitism, for example, was/is probably stronger in France than in Italy.
On the other hand, France has 10 times the number of Moslems and Jews that Italy has, so who knows how Italians would react in a similar context.

 

[PaulMB]

Just checked: France has about 2.5 times the number of Moslems that Italy has, and about 15 times as many Jews.

 

[merlin]

Just checked: France has about 2.5 times the number of Moslems that Italy has, and about 15 times as many Jews.

Just for Tony and others to be aware I'd like to point out the following

If someone uses the words “Moslem” and “Koran” instead of “Muslim” and “Quran,” statistically it is quite likely that the writer is hostile to Islam.

I suspect that in most cases this derives from simple ignorance; the writer is genuinely unaware that Muslim is the preferred usage instead of Moslem. However, if the writer is unaware of that simple point, realistically they are not likely to know much about Islam, and hostility towards Islam is frequently based upon limited knowledge of it.

In a few cases people will be using the word “Moslem” instead of “Muslim” deliberately to irritate Muslims because they are aware that Muslims dislike that obsolete usage. I would like to explain the point with the benefit of an extreme analogy. In the 19’th century it was normal usage amongst white English speakers to refer to people from sub-Saharan Africa as “niggers” without necessarily intending that term to be insulting. Now any usage of the word “******” in the UK or the USA is rightly taken as an extremely serious use of abusive language.

While deliberately using “Moslem” instead of “Muslim” is not as insulting as the above example, when “Moslem” is used knowingly in place of “Muslim,” that is done to give offence.

Paul MB is Jewish AFAIK, and clearly does not fall into the "simply ignorant" category when it comes to Islam.

I imagine he finds it amusing.

I don't.

Sad.

 

[Tony L]

Unfair IMHO. Please remember pfm is a multinational site and terms/spellings/usage changes nation to nation.

 

[PaulMB]

I think you are paranoid, and eager to take offence. Moslem or Muslim are both transliterations from Arabic, which as you may know does not have clear vowel sounds in its alphabet. It is also a language spoken all over the world, with very different accents.
Also, I am 64 years old and have got used to writing Moslem, which as far as I know is in no way offensive to anyone. (Except, evidently, to you) Sad.

 

[merlin]

We will see.

If it's simply because of Paul's "internationalism" then, now that he is aware of causing offence I'm sure he will modify his behavior so as not to do so in future.