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Muslim women are not allowed to wear Burka at the shore in France

ariegur

pfm Member
This is a new rule in several cities in France.

How can a free society in a democratic state force women how to be dressed in a public area like the sea?

Do you think this is justified?

I heard someone explaining in broadcasting that not like England that is running with multi-cultural perception, the secularity in France is a very strong perception even on the behalf of freedom.

To me this story is odd.

Arye
 
Sovereign States determine their laws. France has had its fair share of atrocity lately. How they respond is a matter for them.
 
I really don't understand what the problem is with women wearing what the hell they like at the sea. If a couple of nuns sit in the sand no-one is going to tell them to wear a bathing costume.
 
I really don't understand what the problem is with women wearing what the hell they like at the sea. If a couple of nuns sit in the sand no-one is going to tell them to wear a bathing costume.
This one might...

NUN.gif


:)
 
interesting that a couple of people who have been in support of a different instance of supression of free speech in france are now criticising this measure.

it may also be useful to compare with this:

"Austria strictly prohibits the public display and/or proliferation of all insignia/symbols, emblems, uniforms (full or partial), flags, etc., clearly associated with the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP, commonly known as the Nazi Party)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post–World_War_II_legality_of_Nazi_flags



vuk.
 
I think they'd prefer lobster pink Brits in budgie smugglers.

I'm mixed about this. If the country goes all out secular then everyone should understand. I can also see the argument about being allowed to do what you want. Obviously not anything. But this leads into where the rules should be drawn. For burkas on the beach I'm ok with them (why shouldn't I be). I'm sure there are plenty of ways round it. Where does this stop? No crosses on churches or am I missing the point?
 
Like Judge Judy, or Dredd? Seems unlikely a garment will ever hold that kind of power.
 
i wish we could ban mankinis at my local beach. how any sane man in his 50s (it always seem to be guys in their 50s) can think it looks anything short of ridiculous simply boggles my mind.


vuk.
 
interesting that a couple of people who have been in support of a different instance of supression of free speech in france are now criticising this measure.

it may also be useful to compare with this:

"Austria strictly prohibits the public display and/or proliferation of all insignia/symbols, emblems, uniforms (full or partial), flags, etc., clearly associated with the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP, commonly known as the Nazi Party)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post–World_War_II_legality_of_Nazi_flags

I assume you are referring to your favourite racist "comedian"? There is a big difference between inciting racial hatred and a piece of clothing that some members of a religion choose to wear. I live in a town with a huge Muslim population so various forms of headwear are commonplace. I take no offence at all and certainly would stand with these folk against a ban. People should be allowed to wear what the hell they like as long as it isn't carrying offensive slogans that contravene specific race hate laws etc (e.g. fascist flags in countries where fascism killed millions).
 
tony.

to be clear, i am not in favour of the ban (not clear in your reply that you understood that), just pointing out the consistency. of course there all kinds of big differences in what people say and do. in places like the USA, such rights are protected and even a trump supporter understands why.


vuk.
 
to be clear, i am not in favour of the ban (not clear in your reply that you understood that), just pointing out the consistency. of course there all kinds of big differences in what people say and do. in places like the USA, such rights are protected and even a trump supporter understands why.

FWIW I think America has the rights thing rather wrong in that lunatics can easily buy not only guns but full out military assault weapons, terrorist organisations like the KKK and countless similar neo-fascists can spread their bile and radicalisation freely, and do so armed to the hilt. A few more laws would be a very sensible move IMHO.
 
i am talking about freedom of speech/expression (into which we can bundle clotjing). nothing to do with guns.


vuk.
 
The number of women bathing in burkinis in France is extremely small, probably similar to the number of women who want to walk around the Riviera these days in a full burka: hundreds rather than millions. Women in Muslim countries all around the Mediterranean have somehow managed to work around the issue for decades without burkinis and nobody cared, but now people on both sides want to make it An Issue. As often, politicians are trying to gain a little advantage, one year ahead of important elections, by solving problems that either don't exist or are incredibly minor, just so they can be seen to be doing something. It is easier than doing something about the many big problems that France faces. Most of the very few mayors that have passed an ordinance on the subject are apparently in areas that have never seen a burkini. They were probably the same mayors who were banning monokinis 40 years ago. The fact is they have the power to do that.

Some background on the French concept of laïcité, which is important. The secularists fought the catholics for a good century and a half all over France, and they won in the early 20th century. There is a total separation of Church and State, religion must be a strictly private matter, you won't catch Hollande saying "God bless France" at the end of his speeches, etc. If you want to wear a cross on a pendant in school, you have to stick it inside your T-shirt. The French are not going to make exceptions for a few radical Islamists who have suddenly decided they want to make a point about what should be the proper dress code for women à la plage.

I have no idea what the right approach should be. I feel people should be able to wear whatever they like, and Muslim women should be able to go to the beach just like everybody else. On the other hand nudists know they should go to a nudist beach if they don't want trouble. If I wander onto a nudist beach I have to either leave or take my clothes off, it's the deal. Maybe there should be a few burkini beaches.
 
The number of women bathing in burkinis in France is extremely small, probably similar to the number of women who want to walk around the Riviera these days in a full burka: hundreds rather than millions. Women in Muslim countries all around the Mediterranean have somehow managed to work around the issue for decades without burkinis and nobody cared, but now people on both sides want to make it An Issue. As often, politicians are trying to gain a little advantage, one year ahead of important elections, by solving problems that either don't exist or are incredibly minor, just so they can be seen to be doing something. It is easier than doing something about the many big problems that France faces. Most of the very few mayors that have passed an ordinance on the subject are apparently in areas that have never seen a burkini. They were probably the same mayors who were banning monokinis 40 years ago. The fact is they have the power to do that.

Some background on the French concept of laïcité, which is important. The secularists fought the catholics for a good century and a half all over France, and they won in the early 20th century. There is a total separation of Church and State, religion must be a strictly private matter, you won't catch Hollande saying "God bless France" at the end of his speeches, etc. If you want to wear a cross on a pendant in school, you have to stick it inside your T-shirt. The French are not going to make exceptions for a few radical Islamists who have suddenly decided they want to make a point about what should be the proper dress code for women à la plage.

I have no idea what the right approach should be. I feel people should be able to wear whatever they like, and Muslim women should be able to go to the beach just like everybody else. On the other hand nudists know they should go to a nudist beach if they don't want trouble. If I wander onto a nudist beach I have to either leave or take my clothes off, it's the deal. Maybe there should be a few burkini beaches.

I don't think that the nudist beach is a good example. Being naked is offensive especially in a zone with mixed people including kids.

A professional driver has the right to forbid someone to get on board if he is naked, drunk or too dirty. The driver can’t forbid someone to get on board if he (the driver) doesn’t like the way the passenger is dressed.

If a woman feels fat and wants to be dressed with “full” swimsuit, and with something that covers her head because of the sun, then what? There will be rules to describe the allowed swimsuit’s shape and colors?

Arye
 
I don't think that the nudist beach is a good example. Being naked is offensive especially in a zone with mixed people including kids.

A professional driver has the right to forbid someone to get on board if he is naked, drunk or too dirty. The driver can’t forbid someone to get on board if he (the driver) doesn’t like the way the passenger is dressed.

If a woman feels fat and wants to be dressed with “full” swimsuit, and with something that covers her head because of the sun, then what? There will be rules to describe the allowed swimsuit’s shape and colors?

Arye

Okay. Not sure what you mean by mixed people, but here goes. What are your views on topless beaches? Offensive? Offensive if children present?
 
Okay. Not sure what you mean by mixed people, but here goes. What are your views on topless beaches? Offensive? Offensive if children present?

If men can dress topless then I see no problem with women doing the same.

Arye
 
Some people object. IIRC (it's been a while as I'm not a big beach fan) not done in some parts of Italy, the US, etc. Definitely not OK at most Greek beaches I've been to. Totally acceptable at many (most) French beaches, but would have been not OK 50 years ago.
 
Some people object. IIRC (it's been a while as I'm not a big beach fan) not done in some parts of Italy, the US, etc. Definitely not OK at most Greek beaches I've been to. Totally acceptable at many (most) French beaches, but would have been not OK 50 years ago.

50 years back I think that there were states where women couldn't vote...

I think that the naked ideas are not linked with Burkas. These women are overdressed. Is there something wrong with a woman who is in the street dressed with coat on a very hot day?

Arye
 
We are all agreed then that 100% nudie beaches are not where one would chose to be.
 


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