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USB cable group test in HFN

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paul auster said:
I refer you to my previous post on facts. which you failed to address and in the opinion of one person caused you to flounce off :D Whilst science and measurement is founded upon repetition and empirical observation it is simply not true to say there is not an element of faith in the canon of explanation .

hifi is a peripheral pastime , there is no great search for measurements or tests to prove the differences people perceive are real and in the end it simply does not matter because it is the most subjective of past times , so if a person perceives a difference via a cable then so be it they do not need your absolutist bollocks telling them they are idiots .

this of course does leave the door open for charlatans but the only thing you can ask for is absolute transparency and full disclosure .
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I get very tired of the same old "I heard it so it must be true" mantra. If they'd said "I measured it so I'm happy that's the case" I might have more respect for their position.

This hobby isn't subjective to me. I don't give a fig for what something sounds like as long as I know it measures correctly. I don't buy stuff I like the sound of, I buy stuff that works properly as evidenced by the measurements.

Clear?

S.

Edit: And before somebody comes up with the same old....stuff that measures well but sounds bad, I have NEVER, repeat NEVER come across something that measured well but sounded bad. If it measures well in all important parameters, it will sound good.
 
Werner said:
How about saving it by cutting off the bad parts?
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Without careful management, you risk compartment syndrome. I don't think it's possible to cut off the bad parts without the patient dying now. It's metastasised. Enjoy what's left - the audio bucket list.

Werner said:
Money changing hands for foo may be fine for the dealers, but apart of this it does generally not advance the state of the art, and it is money lost to companies who do try to sell a decent product. One might even say that it is money lost to the audio industry itself, because, in the end, jewel cables, tiny copper cups, and fancy wood blocks have nothing to do with audio or music.
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If you can reliably point to those buying fancy wood blocks or temple bells diverting funds from buying otherwise more sensible bits of audio equipment, I'd agree with you. But I suspect the reverse is true.

Chances are, someone only spends big money on the silly stuff if they have already spent more than their fair share of even bigger money on the audio components. And if someone has a pretty well sorted system but wants to spend money for the sake of spending money, if you think none of this bells and smells stuff makes a difference, then spending money on placebo should be better than spending money haphazardly trying to wreck an already good system.

Moreover, would stopping these people from their regular fix really help, or simply cure the addiction and send them scuttling away from ever buying hi-fi again?
 
sergeauckland said:
I get very tired of the same old "I heard it so it must be true" mantra. If they'd said "I measured it so I'm happy that's the case" I might have more respect for their position.

This hobby isn't subjective to me. I don't give a fig for what something sounds like as long as I know it measures correctly. I don't buy stuff I like the sound of, I buy stuff that works properly as evidenced by the measurements.

Clear?

S.

Edit: And before somebody comes up with the same old....stuff that measures well but sounds bad, I have NEVER, repeat NEVER come across something that measured well but sounded bad. If it measures well in all important parameters, it will sound good.
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Serge I'm happy for you , but I detest your dogmatic desire to denigrate any other methodology .
 
clivem2 said:
The SQ comment was in relation to the 5V wires being able to corrupt the digital wires. This was not my assertion, it was the digital wires corrupting the 5V wires (including ground). SQ apologized for mis-reading my post.
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Ok I understadn that your hypothesis to explain why people might hear differences between cables is that the signal wire might be corrupting the 5v and ground. Nevertheless it seems to me to be a rather strange theory (leaving aside the caveat that it is a theory to explain a phenemenon which is not established to exist.)


a. if the usb dac is susceptible to spuriae on the 5v line, the starting point would have to be isolating from the computer's 5v line. Otherwise whatever you are doing by way of cable geometry would be futile because the most important problem with the cable is going to be that it is doing what wire is designed to do namely conduct electricity, not some secondary problem that it is picking up interference from the signal wire.

Apart from demonstrating that the cables under test make no sense, the theory requires an additional hypothesis- namely that the 5v corruption is sufficiently grave that it will make a difference in the context of whatever other spuriae are lurking in the 5v line already.

b. if the dac simply does not use the 5v line how is it going to be affected by it? the impact would be decisively determined by removing the 5v line not by making it out of, or shielding it with, unobtanium.

[c. what could be the magnitude of the spurious signal in the 5v line generated by proximity to a data line?
d. even in the case a dac which uses the 5v line for handshaking, how is that going to get to the conversion clock to the analog stage]
 
Peter Stockwell said:
Everybody is having so much fun here, couldn't resist pitching in. I think it was JKenny or John Westlake, I can't remember now, who wrote that noise on the 5v line would effect the jitter performance of a DAC. If it was just bits is bits, all would be so simple.

I put a linear power supply on my little server computer (Intel NUC Celeron 847 - it cost £250, it was for a Temple Audio Bantam Gold). Of course I haven't done double blind testing on it, I wasn't expecting much, and I didn't get much of a difference, but I think that I'm getting more clarity, better definition. It's definitely moot whether it's worth £250 to do that, but the iFi iusb is £199, or thereabouts, so you can easily spend that money to break that 5V DC connection.

Most dacs use the 5v from the computer, I think it's to allow the computer to sync the sound card correctly (correct me if I'm wrong).
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Item was very keen on all of this. I seem to remember a thread intneded to identify which dacs use the 5v in what way. Some use it for handshaking. some use it to power the usb receiver, some don't use it at all. Clearly some portable dacs are entirely 5v powered. But in that case the problem of cable geometry is not going to be the issue is it? The problem is conduction as is the better the conductor the worse the problem!

When this first came up years ago my immediate thought was that if the 5v line is a problem, why use the blessed usb connector. Once one recognises how good the jitter performance is of dacs connected by toslink these days, why bother? And if one is determined to use usb in those circs, which buy a dac that uses the 5v line. We are talking about domestic audio here, the dac is plugged into the mains.
 
adamdea said:
Ok I understadn that your hypothesis to explain why people might hear differences between cables is that the signal wire might be corrupting the 5v and ground. Nevertheless it seems to me to be a rather strange theory (leaving aside the caveat that it is a theory to explain a phenemenon which is not established to exist.)


a. if the usb dac is susceptible to spuriae on the 5v line, the starting point would have to be isolating from the computer's 5v line. Otherwise whatever you are doing by way of cable geometry would be futile because the most important problem with the cable is going to be that it is doing what wire is designed to do namely conduct electricity, not some secondary problem that it is picking up interference from the signal wire.

Apart from demonstrating that the cables under test make no sense, the theory requires an additional hypothesis- namely that the 5v corruption is sufficiently grave that it will make a difference in the context of whatever other spuriae are lurking in the 5v line already.

b. if the dac simply does not use the 5v line how is it going to be affected by it? the impact would be decisively determined by removing the 5v line not by making it out of, or shielding it with, unobtanium.

[c. what could be the magnitude of the spurious signal in the 5v line generated by proximity to a data line?
d. even in the case a dac which uses the 5v line for handshaking, how is that going to get to the conversion clock to the analog stage]
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You've cherry picked the 5V line which in quite a lot of cases shouldn't be an issue, ie DACs that don't use it or only handshake - although I still find even in these cases my 3 wire usb sounds better than 4 wire, something is at play here, you'll say it's my imagination but I don't believe this to be the case. Frankly I don't care as my system is for myself and I know what works and what doesn't This still leaves the ground connection which applies to most DACs......if you don't connect grounds you usually get a worrying PD. But we are going around in circles as you said recently.
 
paul auster said:
Serge I'm happy for you , but I detest your dogmatic desire to denigrate any other methodology .
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I would be happy if there was any other methodology. Methodology implies a method. Buying any old tat because some magazine and/or dealer recommends it is hardly methodology. Spending money because they've got some money to spend is hardly sensible, better to donate it to a charity where it will do more good.

But then I have a very functional view of life. I buy stuff because it meets my specification. Before I buy anything of any consequence, I give myself a mental Tender Specification, and I buy what meets the spec at the best overall price (which includes cost of ownership, not just purchase price).

I really don't understand cosmetics or jewellery.

S.
 
clivem2 said:
You've cherry picked the 5V line which in quite a lot of cases shouldn't be an issue, ie DACs that don't use it or only handshake - although I still find even in these cases my 3 wire usb sounds better than 4 wire, something is at play here, you'll say it's my imagination but I don't believe this to be the case. Frankly I don't care as my system is for myself and I know what works and what doesn't This still leaves the ground connection which applies to most DACs......if you don't connect grounds you usually get a worrying PD. But we are going around in circles as you said recently.
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But surely the same point (or most of them) apply to grounds, namely that

a. if the problem is being connected to the computer's noisy ground, then cable geometry will make no difference, and 9 9s pure OFC copper can only conduct it better.

b. Any effect from proximity to signal wire has to be big enough to be heard over the computer's ground noise.

c. If a dac is designed to be able to function in the presence of current on the ground line from the PD between the units, then what are the chances that it will not be able to deal with whatever current is induced in th ground line by proximity to the signal lines?
 
sergeauckland said:
I would be happy if there was any other methodology. Methodology implies a method. Buying any old tat because some magazine and/or dealer recommends it is hardly methodology. Spending money because they've got some money to spend is hardly sensible, better to donate it to a charity where it will do more good.

But then I have a very functional view of life. I buy stuff because it meets my specification. Before I buy anything of any consequence, I give myself a mental Tender Specification, and I buy what meets the spec at the best overall price (which includes cost of ownership, not just purchase price).

I really don't understand cosmetics or jewellery.

S.
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Sensible? It's how you redistribute wealth without the need for gulags and bullets to the back of the neck.

We got into our current economic mess by people spending money when they didn't have that money to spend. We are staying in that mess because those who do have money aren't spending it.

Your blinkered form of personal prudence - if expressed widely enough - causes things to fall apart. Not just the things you don't approve of, it makes the whole edifice crumble.
 
Evil Emperor said:
Sensible? It's how you redistribute wealth without the need for gulags and bullets to the back of the neck.

We got into our current economic mess by people spending money when they didn't have that money to spend. We are staying in that mess because those who do have money aren't spending it.

Your blinkered form of personal prudence - if expressed widely enough - causes things to fall apart. Not just the things you don't approve of, it makes the whole edifice crumble.
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I'm aware of that. It's one of the things that makes me despair about the future. A future in which we all have to consume for the sake of consumption so that we keep everyone in work. It's akin to taking in each other's washing. And yet, if we don't do that we don't get out of this current mess.

Nevertheless, there are better things to spend money on than Foo. What about giving some of it to charity? If that's too radical, what about giving it to our children and ease their lives? What about buying more music? What about paying someone to paint one's house? Recycles money and improves one's property. There are lots of ways of spending money in a way more beneficial to society than HiFi foo.

S.
 
adamdea said:
But surely the same point (or most of them) apply to grounds, namely that

a. if the problem is being connected to the computer's noisy ground, then cable geometry will make no difference, and 9 9s pure OFC copper can only conduct it better.

b. Any effect from proximity to signal wire has to be big enough to be heard over the computer's ground noise.

c. If a dac is designed to be able to function in the presence of current on the ground line from the PD between the units, then what are the chances that it will not be able to deal with whatever current is induced in th ground line by proximity to the signal lines?
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a. if a noisy ground is the only issue that is correct but if it's not noisy then b. may take over.

b. see a. it could one or the other or a combination of both.

c. I doubt anyone designs DACs to be able to cope with PD, it's typical to arrange for there to be no PD but my experience with computers is that this isn't always the case even when all power is taken from a single socket. The worst issue here is that you can blow the DAC output should you unplug the interconnects with the system powered up. One solution is to lift the ground on the computer (preferably a laptop in this situation).

Do you enjoy posting for the sake of posting? If seems to me you've not tried out much of this for yourself. Have you built much kit which would help you view all this from a practical position?
 
sergeauckland said:
I get very tired of the same old "I heard it so it must be true" mantra. If they'd said "I measured it so I'm happy that's the case" I might have more respect for their position.

This hobby isn't subjective to me. I don't give a fig for what something sounds like as long as I know it measures correctly. I don't buy stuff I like the sound of, I buy stuff that works properly as evidenced by the measurements.

Clear?

S.

Edit: And before somebody comes up with the same old....stuff that measures well but sounds bad, I have NEVER, repeat NEVER come across something that measured well but sounded bad. If it measures well in all important parameters, it will sound good.
Click to expand...

Ignoring your clear contradictions I will say that I have heard numerous products that measure well (though I'm not sure anybody really knows what "measures well" means) and sounded average or worse.

What I'm most intrigued about is your placing yourself as the arbiter of electronics and how the world should approach HiFi kit.

I have heard differences between HiFi components under rigorous and less than rigorous conditions and know what I heard. I have no problem trusting my ears. I also consider myself very rational. I don't distrust measurements but my ears will always be the final arbiter.
 
Mstone said:
Ignoring your clear contradictions I will say that I have heard numerous products that measure well (though I'm not sure anybody really knows what "measures well" means) and sounded average or worse.

What I'm most intrigued about is your placing yourself as the arbiter of electronics and how the world should approach HiFi kit.

I have heard differences between HiFi components under rigorous and less than rigorous conditions and know what I heard. I have no problem trusting my ears. I also consider myself very rational. I don't distrust measurements but my ears will always be the final arbiter.
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A totally irrational and contradictory pair of statements, however. Your ears are very, very easily fooled, just like everyone else in the human race.

Chris
 
Mstone said:
So you don't trust your own ears then?
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Absolutely not. What we see, what we perceive, what we "know", has a marked effect upon what we hear.

Linn & Naim built an empire on this particular phenomena. If you weren't around at the time, ask about the toe-tapping salesmen.

Also, the effect is just so very well researched & documented. We hear what we expect to hear. You have to try to remove expectations, conscious & unconscious before you can trust your ears.

Chris
 
These debates having being going on for years and years, same stuff, different day, now why doesn't one of the HiFi toe rags get in contact with one of the forums and say, look chaps we are going to conduct a USB cable test or whatever, and we'd like to invite one or two of your forums gurus along to participate, in the past we feel we've heard/seen some differences, but as we are all corrupt and have an agenda we are sending out an invitation for some lucky members of your forums to get involved in our next test, their input and view would be greatly appreciated.

That would be fun and much more interesting, the mag rags need to involve the readership far more than they currently do.
 
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