USB cable group test in HFN

[adamdea]

When I pointed out the foot tapping bit in he article, I thought of two things:
1) Was it double blind. If there is someone in the room who knows which sample is which, he can spoil the test
2) Once the panel communicate you might as well have only one person there

Agreed on both points. The first one is a clear problem, but I accpet that no one ever suggested it was double blind. As for the second, why not come up with scores individually and then compare?

Also on the second point I was suspicious that there is no indication of any disagreement between any of them on anything. It sounds like a Soviet election result.

So how do they get to the 70, 75, 80, 90 or whatever score? Do they each score and average, or do they all agree a score or does one person decide what he thinks they all meant? I strongly suspect the last option, and I even wonder whether the "convener" was "blind"

 

[maxflinn]

It 's commonly assumed that digital cables should not offer varying levels of performance. Only an idiot who's never read the hdml tests he references in his own post would claim that their performance cannot differ- when patently it can.

Perhaps you meant to say, well designed digital cables either work or they do not, if they do not then errors are audible.

Not working isn't a level of performance! It means a faulty cable!

well designed digital cables either work or they do not, if they do not then errors are audible


Perhaps only an idiot who's too busy being a pedantic smartass wouldn't realise that what he possibly meant to say was-

Digital audio cables that meet spec either work or they do not, if they do not then the most likely outcome by far is no sound at all, though it's rare but possible, that too many errors may manifest themselves as audible clicks, pops or sound dropouts, which means a faulty cable!

Instead of stating that a non working digital cable must cause audible errors!

 

[Joe P]

The anti-foo obsession is just as wacko as full-blown audiophoolia: it's the opposite side of the same weirdo audio coin.

Life really is too short. Play some Beethoven, put up your feet and relax, man.*

This is why you bought the shit in the first place.

Joe

* Claudio Arrau is awesome even if listened to at a low bit rate streamed wirelessly to a lappy.

 

[jcbrum]

The anti-foo obsession is just as wacko as full-blown audiophoolia: it's the opposite side of the same weirdo audio coin.

Can't agree with that.

This is not a situation where a median view is 'normality'. That is simply a corruption of reality.

Foo is wacko.

Anti-foo is the proper condition.

Any acceptance of a degree of foo is delusion, - to a degree.

Scotty, as an engineer, would tell you that.

JC

 

[Singslinger]

And I thought it was a good, informative article.

 

[Errol]

And I thought it was a good, informative article.

Don't feel so bad and don't worry about being confused, you are only in touch with reality and there is nothing like a cable post to bring out those who live at the edges of it.
Mr ED

 

[davidsrsb]

Agreed on both points. The first one is a clear problem, but I accpet that no one ever suggested it was double blind. As for the second, why not come up with scores individually and then compare?

Also on the second point I was suspicious that there is no indication of any disagreement between any of them on anything. It sounds like a Soviet election result.

So how do they get to the 70, 75, 80, 90 or whatever score? Do they each score and average, or do they all agree a score or does one person decide what he thinks they all meant? I strongly suspect the last option, and I even wonder whether the "convener" was "blind"

If the cable swapper starts getting excited and starts foot tapping after he fits the UKP 6500 sample,and the audience follow him, it is not ABX at all and would also explain the unamity

 

[Steven Toy]

If the cable swapper starts getting excited and starts foot tapping after he fits the UKP 6500 sample,and the audience follow him, it is not ABX at all and would also explain the unamity

That is actually quite probable. It is price tags like that get the consumer warriors so worked up and rightly so. £6.5k cannot be justified beyond the fact that it is a free country and market.

 

[adamdea]

That is actually quite probable. It is price tags like that get the consumer warriors so worked up and rightly so. £6.5k cannot be justified beyond the fact that it is a free country and market.

A very fair and balanced view, Steven.

 

[sq225917]

Not working isn't a level of performance! It means a faulty cable!

well designed digital cables either work or they do not, if they do not then errors are audible


Perhaps only an idiot who's too busy being a pedantic smartass wouldn't realise that what he possibly meant to say was-

Digital audio cables that meet spec either work or they do not, if they do not then the most likely outcome by far is no sound at all, though it's rare but possible, that too many errors may manifest themselves as audible clicks, pops or sound dropouts, which means a faulty cable!

Instead of stating that a non working digital cable must cause audible errors!

I've never heard a digital cable that doesn't work at all. I've heard plenty that squirrel and chirp from time to time.

 

[Whaleblue]

Max,

Beyond stating your understanding regarding USB cable possible failure modes, it is the test method that you need to concentrate on.

Does everyone else hear the Siren song this thread emits? It's soooo beatifullllll.....

 

[clivem2]

It's certain that the best USB cable won't be seriously expensive, your DIY efforts demonstrate that.

We agree! I've been saying on this thread that my Seagate disk drive cable is the best I've heard as a full spec USB cable.


To those who say a USB is just a digital cable so they all sound the same: A USB cable is not just a digital cable. It is a combined digital and a power cable. The power wires are the VBUS and GROUND wires. It is not generally thought of as ok to feed computer switched mode power supply noise into analogue hifi kit, ie the analogue part of the DAC. This is one possibility as to what can happen even with good galvanic isolation.

Where I agree with HFN: USB cables can differ in sound.

Where I don't agree with HFN: I don't see the link with the eye patterns. It seems more rational to look for an interaction to do with the VBUS and GROUND, possibly modulated by the data wires and very probably switched mode PS noise is a factor too. I'm aware that some people have concerns around impedance too.

 

[Evil Emperor]

Can't agree with that.

This is not a situation where a median view is 'normality'. That is simply a corruption of reality.

Foo is wacko.

Anti-foo is the proper condition.

Any acceptance of a degree of foo is delusion, - to a degree.

Scotty, as an engineer, would tell you that.

JC

Wrong.

I lurked by to see if anything interesting happened in the meantime and a 35-page stream of invective from all and sundry about something that really doesn't matter sprung up. My resolve is hardened.

This is a subject to which the vast majority of people couldn't give a rat's ass about. I don't read that many hi-fi magazines these days, not because they are thinly-veiled advertising, but because most of what they write about doesn't interest me any more. Sorry, valve lovers... but I'm just not interested. If there's a review of a valve amp in a magazine, I filter it out. And I would consider myself an enthusiast. So if you don't like cable reviews, do what everyone else does - filter them out.

None of this matters. If my dealer sells an expensive cable to a customer who buys it because it's exotic audio jewellery, and in the process it means my dealer manages to stay in business long enough to provide good service for me the next time I walk in the door, I consider that a win. If through 'want of a nail' economics, he goes out of business, that is not a win.

Is it a bad thing that magazines promote cables and dealers sell them? No more or less than it being a bad thing that magazines promote expensive bollocks 'anti-aging' creams and they sell in chemists. I would much rather have my local chemist keep in business to provide me my statins, and if that comes at the expense of some 45-year old Range Rover driving social X-Ray wasting her money on a £100 bottle of Nivea to try and look 44, so be it.

None of it matters because the only people who give a crap about this stuff are the few dozen people on a forum who either get indignant or defensive about things everyone else either buys as part of the deal or doesn't.

It's not going to raise or lower the credibility of hi-fi in the wider public if fancy cables exist. Hi-fi has no credibility in the wider public. It doesn't exist to them - this whole industry is neatly wrapped up in products from Bose, Apple and Sonos. Everything else is geek-**** to most people and wasting 500+ posts on something as trivial as cable proves they are right.

But the great thing about this thread is it's proved to me the decision to get the hell out of this place was the right one. It's actually cured me of my lurking too. Not because I disagree with one side or agree with another, but because it's all shouting about irrelevances. This is myopia on an industrial scale, as relevant to the real world as arguing strenuously about shoelace tips or whether buttons or press studs are better for duvet covers.

It's pointless point scoring, and that's not accidental repetition. There are far bigger fish to fry.

 

[Werner]

It is not generally thought of as ok to feed computer switched mode power supply noise into analogue hifi kit, ie the analogue part of the DAC. This is one possibility as to what can happen even with good galvanic isolation.

How do you feed computer switched mode power supply noise into a component when full isolation is present?

 

[clivem2]

How do you feed computer switched mode power supply noise into a component when full isolation is present?

As others have agreed full isolation does not exist in the sort of equipment most people have in their hifi systems.

 

[Disbeliever]

Wrong.

I lurked by to see if anything interesting happened in the meantime and a 35-page stream of invective from all and sundry about something that really doesn't matter sprung up. My resolve is hardened.

This is a subject to which the vast majority of people couldn't give a rat's ass about. I don't read that many hi-fi magazines these days, not because they are thinly-veiled advertising, but because most of what they write about doesn't interest me any more. Sorry, valve lovers... but I'm just not interested. If there's a review of a valve amp in a magazine, I filter it out. And I would consider myself an enthusiast. So if you don't like cable reviews, do what everyone else does - filter them out.

None of this matters. If my dealer sells an expensive cable to a customer who buys it because it's exotic audio jewellery, and in the process it means my dealer manages to stay in business long enough to provide good service for me the next time I walk in the door, I consider that a win. If through 'want of a nail' economics, he goes out of business, that is not a win.

Is it a bad thing that magazines promote cables and dealers sell them? No more or less than it being a bad thing that magazines promote expensive bollocks 'anti-aging' creams and they sell in chemists. I would much rather have my local chemist keep in business to provide me my statins, and if that comes at the expense of some 45-year old Range Rover driving social X-Ray wasting her money on a £100 bottle of Nivea to try and look 44, so be it.

None of it matters because the only people who give a crap about this stuff are the few dozen people on a forum who either get indignant or defensive about things everyone else either buys as part of the deal or doesn't.

It's not going to raise or lower the credibility of hi-fi in the wider public if fancy cables exist. Hi-fi has no credibility in the wider public. It doesn't exist to them - this whole industry is neatly wrapped up in products from Bose, Apple and Sonos. Everything else is geek-**** to most people and wasting 500+ posts on something as trivial as cable proves they are right.

But the great thing about this thread is it's proved to me the decision to get the hell out of this place was the right one. It's actually cured me of my lurking too. Not because I disagree with one side or agree with another, but because it's all shouting about irrelevances. This is myopia on an industrial scale, as relevant to the real world as arguing strenuously about shoelace tips or whether buttons or press studs are better for duvet covers.

It's pointless point scoring, and that's not accidental repetition. There are far bigger fish to fry.

Whilst I agree with most of what you post, should you be posting at all? after all the people on this Forum are interested in products that are a complete irrelevance to the majority and they are entitled to express their opinions , right or wrong.

 

[Werner]

As others have agreed full isolation does not exist in the sort of equipment most people have in their hifi systems.

Please show me the evidence. It would be extremely unwise to have a component of some aspirations interface through USB with a standalone computer without breaking at the very least the ground connection (bus power is not/need not be used). Failing to do so would lead to obvious ground loop problems in many a situation.

 

[Evil Emperor]

Whilst I agree with most of what you post, should you be posting at all? after all the people on this Forum are interested in products that are a complete irrelevance to the majority and they are entitled to express their opinions , right or wrong.

You are probably right and I have no intention to be dragged back into posting regularly, anymore.

The point is, there are bigger fish to fry. Things that might be relevant about audio, not some massive nerd-spat with someone arguing vociferously about a test they are angry about without ever having even read it, and others willing to defend the indefensible.

This is audio's evolution vs. creation 'debate'. It cannot be resolved because both sides know they are 'right', but 'right' within a series of boundaries that contradict one another. Away from such arguments, interesting and genuine theological and scientific discussion and development continue to take place, and it's only the intellectually undernourished and the emotionally needy that feel a need to continue the endless argument.

The problem with the evolution vs. creation debate, and the cable arguments taking place here is the reaction to the argument is stronger than the reaction to what's being argued over. If someone drifted into the forum, perhaps building up the courage to not lurk and ask a question about something important (perhaps about cartridge compliance issues), seeing this all-too-regular and far too heated debate about the audio equivalent of brake light position on a touring bicycle would send them far, far away.

Worse, if someone came here looking for some preliminary advice for either buying their first system or finding their first dealer, they would end up buying a set of golf clubs.

There's a massive paradox here. I suspect if there was no cable advertising, some of the magazines would be unsustainable. If there were fewer magazines and no cable reviews to fight over, there would be far less traffic in the forums and they would become unsustainable. I just find people who's only interest in music is fighting about trying to limit my right to spend my money on whatever I choose to spend it on to be the worst kind of petty. OK, so if you feel you have special knowledge that prevents me from killing myself while listening to music, fair enough. Otherwise, it's not your money to waste.

 

[clivem2]

Please show me the evidence. It would be extremely unwise to have a component of some aspirations interface through USB with a standalone computer without breaking at the very least the ground connection (bus power is not/need not be used). Failing to do so would lead to obvious ground loop problems in many a situation.

Somewhere in the is short thread a number was given as to the frequencies isolators are effective to, whether this results in impacting SQ to enough of an extent for audibility - this I don't know but it's more likely than digital corruption without chirps and clicks.

Also....a number of DACs use the 5V to some extent and this trend seems to be growing. I don't believe isolators are anywhere near sufficient for cleaning switching noise, if this were the case it would be so simple to get clean power.

 

[avole]

I take it then everyone is now happy that the digital component of an USB cable cannot effect sound quality, and its that dastardly 5v that gets people's feet tapping or not?