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System Components

You are playing recordings. You cannot faithfully RE produce those if your room colours that sound. It's simple physics I'm afraid.

You can faithfully produce the sound of a sax playing in your room by having a sax playing in your room.

The sound originates in your acoustic space. The sound your hifi is playing does not - your room will modify it and it will no longer be a faithful reproduction.
 
Yes because you are playing a recording with its own acoustic, and them superimposing your rooms acoustic on top.
I suppose if the recording were made in an anechoic chamber!
Keith.

We have two choices:

1) Record in an anechoic chamber

2) Listen in the above.
 
Anechoic chambers have a mesh floor with the acoustic foam beneath, actually taking the kids to see/hear one next holiday.
Keith.
 
By my calculations, your listening room must have parallel walls @ 110 metres apart? (360 feet for non-metric people).
Cheers,
Mort
 
Particularly nasty is (was) the flutter echo lengthwise between facing
walls, each showing some 4 m^2 of bare surface.
Hanging Daniel L., Trixie W., Leonard C., Heather N. and Nina S. off
one of these walls cured it entirely.

Glad you fixed your problem, but maybe hanging 5 people might be seen as a bit extrreme ;-)
Is ths method some sort of voodoo, or one of Peter Belt's more "out there" suggestions?
Cheers,
Mort
 
My room is almost anechoic. No noticeable reverberation. I get the ambiance and reverberation of a live venue also in some cases the rumbling of London traffic!

Cheers,

DV
 
maybe hanging 5 people might be seen as a bit extrreme

Actually six. There's a drumming bloke whose name I don't know. And Lenny is still wandering around.

Well, actually it does. Any instrument is going to sound different in your living room, toilet, a field, or the Albert Hall.

More. Specific compositions and music styles are/were made for specific types of venues. Those interested in these matters may want to read the first chapters of F.Toole's book.
 
Well, actually it does. Any instrument is going to sound different in your living room, toilet, a field, or the Albert Hall.

Can we not listen through those differences to what the instrument(s) and its player(s) are actually doing?

It is an unrealistic expectation to turn you listening room into an anechoic chamber; it is simply never going to happen. Trying to recreate the acoustic venue on the recording in my living room is low down my list of priorities. Action for me where music is concerned is more important than context.

My priority is for my system to reproduce the action more than the context. If the latter isn't truly dreadful the former will always shine through if the system is capable of reproducing music in tune and in time. Some systems are clearly better at this than others regardless (within reason) where the recording was captured or played back.

To the next Round Earther who proclaims that the room [in which your hi-fi is situated] is the Most Important Thing I will say:

It depends on whether you prioritise action or context. The natural timbre, texture, harmonic structure and dynamics of an instrument being played will shine through via a good system at reproducing these qualities, regardless of the bloody room unless it is really dreadful. The odd deviation from a ruler-flat in-room frequency response, the brain can allow for. Making such allowances is easier for me than fillling in the gaps left by an arse-about system that fails to resolve musical information and make clear the exact order of events from source but delivers these imperfections into the perfect room.

Round earthers and measurists just don't get it and they don't want to work with how the human ear/brain interface actually works. The ability to filter information received via the ear is not a flaw intended to trick us, (although numerous experiments, parlour tricks, achieve this particular aim in pursuit of a particular agenda) it is intended to allow the focus of our attention the freedom to wander and the possibility to listen to someone speaking in a room full of other noises, for example, or distinguish between the rustling of leaves caused by a stalking predator and by the breeze.

Timing acuity is what our brains do well. In-situ linearity is largely an irrelevance to human perception.
 
Can we not listen through those differences to what the instrument(s) and its player(s) are actually doing?

It is an unrealistic expectation to turn you listening room into an anechoic chamber; it is simply never going to happen. Trying to recreate the acoustic venue on the recording in my living room is low down my list of priorities. Action for me where music is concerned is more important than context.

My priority is for my system to reproduce the action more than the context. If the latter isn't truly dreadful the former will always shine through if the system is capable of reproducing music in tune and in time. Some systems are clearly better at this than others regardless (within reason) where the recording was captured or played back.

To the next Round Earther who proclaims that the room [in which your hi-fi is situated] is the Most Important Thing I will say:

It depends on whether you prioritise action or context. The natural timbre, texture, harmonic structure and dynamics of an instrument being played will shine through via a good system at reproducing these qualities, regardless of the bloody room unless it is really dreadful. The odd deviation from a ruler-flat in-room frequency response, the brain can allow for. Making such allowances is easier for me than fillling in the gaps left by an arse-about system that fails to resolve musical information and make clear the exact order of events from source but delivers these imperfections into the perfect room.

Round earthers and measurists just don't get it and they don't want to work with how the human ear/brain interface actually works. The ability to filter information received via the ear is not a flaw intended to trick us, (although numerous experiments, parlour tricks, achieve this particular aim in pursuit of a particular agenda) it is intended to allow the focus of our attention the freedom to wander and the possibility to listen to someone speaking in a room full of other noises, for example, or distinguish between the rustling of leaves caused a stalking predator and by the breeze.
Timing acuity is what our brains do well. In-situ linearity is largely an irrelevance to human perception.


Although Steven and I seldon agree about much, I agree with his assessment of the contribution of the room. Unless the room is truly awful, as in an anechoic chamber or an echo chamber, most domestic rooms with rugs/carpets, uphostelry, bookcases etc etc have an RT60 time suitable for reproducing music. One's brain adapts to the sound of the room, as we're each used to hearing normal everyday sounds in that room, and know how the room modifies speech and these everyday sounds. Playing a HiFi system in that room then, will sound natural for that room. Whatever the HiFi system is doing will be modified by the room, but in a way we're familiar and comfortable with.

That's my objection to room correction, as it tries to remove the effect of the room. That's important for someone in a studio centre working an hour in one room, another hour in another room and a further hour in a third. The rooms should all sound the same as otherwise confusion sets in. Room Corrrection is appropriate in that situtation, but less so at home where we're only ever listening in one room that changes little.

Having said all that, some modern rooms are too sparsely furnished, with hard floors and the RT60 time is too long and the decay with frequency is too different. It also probably has flutter echos from too little dispersive material. A room like that, which we see in many adversting pictures for HiFi, will sound pretty bad, and will ruin any HiFi syesten however good. Equally, the old overstuffed Victorian clutter would be excessively damped and HiFi wouldn;t sound too good there either. A balance needs be struck, but when it is, the quality of the HiFi system itself can be heard, for good or ill.

S.
 
Can we not listen through those differences to what the instrument(s) and its player(s) are actually doing?

It is an unrealistic expectation to turn you listening room into an anechoic chamber; it is simply never going to happen. Trying to recreate the acoustic venue on the recording in my living room is low down my list of priorities. Action for me where music is concerned is more important than context.

My priority is for my system to reproduce the action more than the context. If the latter isn't truly dreadful the former will always shine through if the system is capable of reproducing music in tune and in time. Some systems are clearly better at this than others regardless (within reason) where the recording was captured or played back.

To the next Round Earther who proclaims that the room [in which your hi-fi is situated] is the Most Important Thing I will say:

It depends on whether you prioritise action or context. The natural timbre, texture, harmonic structure and dynamics of an instrument being played will shine through via a good system at reproducing these qualities, regardless of the bloody room unless it is really dreadful. The odd deviation from a ruler-flat in-room frequency response, the brain can allow for. Making such allowances is easier for me than fillling in the gaps left by an arse-about system that fails to resolve musical information and make clear the exact order of events from source but delivers these imperfections into the perfect room.

Round earthers and measurists just don't get it and they don't want to work with how the human ear/brain interface actually works. The ability to filter information received via the ear is not a flaw intended to trick us, (although numerous experiments, parlour tricks, achieve this particular aim in pursuit of a particular agenda) it is intended to allow the focus of our attention the freedom to wander and the possibility to listen to someone speaking in a room full of other noises, for example, or distinguish between the rustling of leaves caused a stalking predator and by the breeze.

Timing acuity is what our brains do well. In-situ linearity is largely an irrelevance to human perception.

Excellent post, well said.

It is an onging occurence with people trying to recreate the context, and spend days, weeks, months even years listening to the same selection of music in the ultimate aim of recreating it's context.

I believe that, at some point, we have all fiddled around with hifi components (stands/supports, mains leads, mains blocks, interconnects, speaker cables, and different component parts). Some continue to fiddle around because that is what gives them pleasure with their hobby, and others stop fiddling and listen and enjoy all music.
Both types are intertwined, as without the other there wouldn't be any progress and/or evaluation feedback of a particular presentation being right or wrong, dependant on each persons particular requirements from the system/music.
 
Although Steven and I seldon agree about much, I agree with his assessment of the contribution of the room. Unless the room is truly awful, as in an anechoic chamber or an echo chamber, most domestic rooms with rugs/carpets, uphostelry, bookcases etc etc have an RT60 time suitable for reproducing music. One's brain adapts to the sound of the room, as we're each used to hearing normal everyday sounds in that room, and know how the room modifies speech and these everyday sounds. Playing a HiFi system in that room then, will sound natural for that room. Whatever the HiFi system is doing will be modified by the room, but in a way we're familiar and comfortable with.

That's my objection to room correction, as it tries to remove the effect of the room. That's important for someone in a studio centre working an hour in one room, another hour in another room and a further hour in a third. The rooms should all sound the same as otherwise confusion sets in. Room Corrrection is appropriate in that situtation, but less so at home where we're only ever listening in one room that changes little.

Having said all that, some modern rooms are too sparsely furnished, with hard floors and the RT60 time is too long and the decay with frequency is too different. It also probably has flutter echos from too little dispersive material. A room like that, which we see in many adversting pictures for HiFi, will sound pretty bad, and will ruin any HiFi syesten however good. Equally, the old overstuffed Victorian clutter would be excessively damped and HiFi wouldn;t sound too good there either. A balance needs be struck, but when it is, the quality of the HiFi system itself can be heard, for good or ill.

S.

Borrowing that bloody Trinnov clearly did you the power of good. ;-) Les échecs font avancer...
 
I still find it paradoxical that you take your speakers into the garden to EQ them flat, then allow the room to manipulate the FR!
I agree that some earlier iterations of room correction software , created a disembodied sound quite divorced from the natural sound of the room.
The Trinnov for example simply tries to optimise the sound of your room ,your room Serge may be quite benign but often rooms can be truly awful, and spoil the sq of whatever system is used.
Ideally everyone would have a perfect purpose built room, but the reality ...
Keith.
 
Anyway, I digress...

After I'd heard the busker in the tunnel I knew exactly what I required from my system. I wanted it to be able to capture the essence, soul, dynamics and harmonics of instruments such as that clarinet and I wanted to capture all the nuances of the performance of the musicians. I knew that my hi-fi was never going to replicate exactly that live sound but I thought I could at least get as close as was humanly possible within the constraints of the possible and affordable. With this aim in mind, room acoustics (beyond being rid of the truly awful) are an irrelevance (IMHO). If the clarinet player didn't need a ruler-flat in-room frequency response to work his magic then neither did a hi-fi system.

This is how I see it: Bad rooms do seem to amplify smearing effects within the electro-mechanical audio chain so why not try to be rid of them at source?
.

Opps wrong thread.
 
Can we not listen through those differences to what the instrument(s) and its player(s) are actually doing?

It is an unrealistic expectation to turn you listening room into an anechoic chamber; it is simply never going to happen. Trying to recreate the acoustic venue on the recording in my living room is low down my list of priorities. Action for me where music is concerned is more important than context.

You enjoy your music. That's great.

But that is different from what you claimed.

It is true that if your system plays in tune and in time* you will not notice that your room acoustics are less than perfect.

*For the pedants, faithfully reproducing music played in tune and in time.

You cannot faithfully reproduce music in tune and time unless your room acoustics are sorted out. As I said. That's the physics of it. Now I'm not suggesting that faithful reproduction is in any way preferable to many.
 
Opps wrong thread.

If thread crap is your game (which it is in your case) the thread itself is immaterial. The whatsnext spider is a frequent thread irritant and has little of use to contribute. When the window is wide open the crap flies in....

Natural digression is not a thread crap.

Keith, the Trinnov optimises the room at the expense of the music. It is an objectivist's toy and is irrelevant to the goal of faithfully reproducing music. It epitomises everything that is wrong with round earth thinking in audio.
 
I still find it paradoxical that you take your speakers into the garden to EQ them flat, then allow the room to manipulate the FR!

Also EQ'ing them flat only seemingly on axis which potentially makes things worse in room. That seems a little strange.
 


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