System Components

[Avonessence]

Who agrees or disagrees with the following statement:

You are often told that products should warm up for weeks, and that you should not evaluate them before this period is over. However, the downside of this is that during a warm up period of several weeks you get used to a product, and as such partly loose your ability to evaluate it objectively. Therefore a good system should play music from the initial turn on. Obviously it will - and should - become better in time, but its musicality should be present almost from the beginning. a good system will simply provide you with even more musicality as time passes.

 

[LOTUS HIFI]

Depends .. teflon caps for example need hundreds of hours to give their best. There is no way round this and the difference between zero hours and fully run in is extreme.

As for equipment thats already run in, half an hour is a fair allowance. Valve gear especially needs a wee while.

 

[Cheese]

Obviously it will - and should - become better in time.[/B][/I]

Even this smells fishy to me.

That said, my mechanic told me that the engine of my new car will boost more once it has reached more or less the 5k mark. I may well be wrong but it really feels that way

 

[Avonessence]

So with a piece of equipment that has teflon caps, would you say that it doesn't play music from initial turn-on, the sound is not coherant, musical or enjoyable, and you have to wait hundreds of hours before you can even evaluate that it is something that you can live with, let alone that the component is not compromised by faulty and/or out of spec components?

IMLE if a component of a system is not musical/engaging from initial switch on, then no amount of burn/run-in will not miraculously make the component musical/engaging.

 

[hughjampton]

Even this smells fishy to me.

That said, my mechanic told me that the engine of my new car will boost more once it has reached more or less the 5k mark. I may well be wrong but it really feels that way

Even with modern engine production tolerances cars still improve after running in. But that's mechanical not electronic.

 

[John R Leddy]

These ideas possess the impishness of a student prank.

The thought of waiting weeks to evaluate a hi-fi component and then, of all things, worrying about if your judgment is impaired or less valid because you may have become used to its sound, appears a bit mischievous to say the least.

A hi-fi system should indeed be capable of playing music after it is turned on.

It is not obvious a hi-fi system will, and should, become better in time. Designers and manufacturers are not in the business of producing variance in the quality of their goods; quite the opposite in fact. They strive for consistency and reliability by the implementation of exacting production protocols.

A hi-fi system should not possess musicality in itself, but rather be a means of audio replay which, by design, strives for a facsimile of the musicality of the performers it seeks to reproduce.

A good hi-fi system should remain constant in its capabilities for a reasonable length of time suitable to its purpose. If a component is capable of gaining musicality over time, the perceived change would suggest poor design and indifferent manufacture.

 

[Avonessence]

These ideas possess the impishness of a student prank. This is a quote from a reasonably well know manufacturers website.
The thought of waiting weeks to evaluate a hi-fi component and then, of all things, worrying about if your judgment is impaired or less valid because you may have become used to its sound, appears a bit mischievous to say the least.

A hi-fi system should indeed be capable of playing music after it is turned on. That is what I read the quote is atempting to convey.

It is not obvious a hi-fi system will, and should, become better in time. Designers and manufacturers are not in the business of producing variance in the quality of their goods; quite the opposite in fact. They strive for consistency and reliability by the implementation of exacting production protocols. Manufacturers can strive for consistency on measured values, whether these measured values relate to the ears perception is issue entirely. IME not all equipment that measures the same, sounds the same. IMO I would say that the manufacturers are not using the correct testing/measurements to achieve audible consistency.

A hi-fi system should not possess musicality in itself, but rather be a means of audio replay which, by design, strives for a facsimile of the musicality of the performers it seeks to reproduce.

A good hi-fi system should remain constant in its capabilities for a reasonable length of time suitable to its purpose. If a component is capable of gaining musicality over time, the perceived change would suggest poor design and indifferent manufacture.

Replies in red.

 

[Robert]

Nothing takes days to warm up, let alone weeks.

If such components exist inside a circuit, they are totally unfit for purpose and should be dumped asap, then replaced by something that works.

 

[afewbeers]

I heard about a guy who said that sometimes his hifi could make him cry. One presumes that the reason it didn't make him cry all the time was because he wasn't in the mood.

My ds streamer is the only thing that could make me cry, and that's when the network doesn't recognise it and I can't play anything.

Oh, and it has inkier blacks when I turn the lights out. Everyone knows nicer looking kit sounds better, just as clean cars drive better than dirty cars

 

[John R Leddy]

Answers in red.

You've lost me.

I didn't ask questions, so I have no idea of the queries you reckon to be answering.

I notice you've asked me a question though, but with the best will in the world, I am unable to relate its enquiry to the contents of my statement.

Sorry, I just don't know what to say. I mean it. I'm being sincere.

 

[John R Leddy]

Densen Audio Technologies

How To Evaluate Hi-Fi
by Thomas Sillesen

http://densen.dk/index.php?page=how-to-evaluate-hi-fi

 

[Avonessence]

You've lost me.

I didn't ask questions, so I have no idea of the queries you reckon to be answering.

I notice you've asked me a question though, but with the best will in the world, I am unable to relate its enquiry to the contents of my statement.

Sorry, I just don't know what to say. I mean it. I'm being sincere.

Apologies John, changed the wording of my post to your post.

 

[Avonessence]

If a component is capable of gaining musicality over time, the perceived change would suggest poor design and indifferent manufacture.

Has anyone had any experience of a component (CDP, Amp, etc) that has changed over a period of time that created the musicality that wasn't there when initially switched on from new?

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

If you're evaluating a product, eg at a dealer's, then you can expect it to have been 'burned in' to the extent necessary, if that takes weeks of use. I do think products sound better during a 'warm-up' period of 20-30 minutes, though, so any dems should not be from cold.

Some products do, IME, get better after a day or two from switch-on, but they sound perfectly fine after that 20-30 minute warm-up, any further improvements are just the icing on the cake. The musicality is there from switch-on, noticeably improves over the next few minutes, then gradually and subtly gets better over the next couple of days. This last bit is debatable, and hard to compare, but I think it happens.

I can't think of an occasion where a product blossoms to the extent that its character changes out of all recognition. Most products will give a fairly truthful account of themselves after half an hour of use, IME.

 

[Alan Sircom]

Densen Audio Technologies

How To Evaluate Hi-Fi
by Thomas Sillesen

http://densen.dk/index.php?page=how-to-evaluate-hi-fi

I met Thomas in a bar in Munich last year. Judging by that photograph, I must have been more drunk than I remember, because I distinctly had him down for not being fourteen feet tall.

 

[avole]

You can't argue with the Densen philosophy. One of the few companies to offer a lifetime warranty with their products.

 

[Cereal Killer]

Densen Audio Technologies

How To Evaluate Hi-Fi
by Thomas Sillesen

http://densen.dk/index.php?page=how-to-evaluate-hi-fi

Or simply buy what you like

 

[stevec67]

Teflon caps take hundreds of hours? If that's the case then why don't high end manufacturers pretreat them and offer them ready run in? What's the nature of the physical change?

Some things do change over a few minutes. Electrolytic caps (re)form the dielectric layer, things warm up (valves etc) and so on. This takes minutes though, maybe half an hour. However I've not seen any evidence that any process out there takes weeks or even days. I'm prepared to stand corrected if someone can demonstrate the changes.

 

[Richard Kimber]

Has anyone had any experience of a component (CDP, Amp, etc) that has changed over a period of time that created the musicality that wasn't there when initially switched on from new?

Yes. The MDAC.

- Richard.

 

[Richard Kimber]

You can't argue with the Densen philosophy. One of the few companies to offer a lifetime warranty with their products.

Rule 5 sounds a bit dodgy to me. If your existing system has a fault, and you can show that the fault doesn't exist with other equipment, then surely it's rational to buy new equipment.

- Richard.