vinyl: where do you get the best bang per buck?

[Cable Monkey]

You have to get the platform right. If you don't have acceptable speed stability and isolation then anything you do down stream will be compromised. Of course "acceptable" is very subjective. Once that is sorted then the arm has to be able to work with the deck. Finally your cartridge has to suit the arm while not objecting to any aspect of the deck such as a ferrous platter or hum from a motor. Thus for me you can't specify best bang for buck in any one component, it is only achieved if all 3 work well together.

 

[paskinn]

Thanks. Im aware that the whest is in second hand superline territory too and i would assume a natural synergy with the rest of my system. What would you consider "romantic" phono stages??

Cheers

Andy

I probably can't help you with phonostages, because I only use valve ones, and I don't think that is what you are looking for. But if you got the chance, it might be fun to hear something like an Audio Research phonostage, as that treads the line between solid state and valve sound. But, in the end, only your ears can tell you what is right for you. Shame it is so hard to get the right demos.

 

[maccavelli]

Environment and set up can often make or break a system sonically

 

[Andy1912]

More I suspect so but perhaps not as much as you might think for B stock item. Give James a bell and see what he can do. This is what I did.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I did get in touch with James at Whest and I think I've got a pretty decent deal - a 2011 30R with a 5 year warranty, and he gave me a decent trade-in for my P75 too. In view of the fact that the karat cart is about 6 months old, probably that was the way to go. A Koetsu perhaps when the current cart has had it...

I'm really looking forward to hearing this Whest phono in my set-up. Only ever had the P75 which moved with me from the naim 5i integrated and gyro to what I have now....

Thanks again

Andy

 

[tenpercenter]

Hi,

I was just wondering of the following three, what is the order of importance re sound quality: a) cartridge; b) arm, and c) phono stage.

The reason that I am asking is that I keep toying with the idea of upgrading my cartridge, and I'd really like to give a koetsu a go. However, I currently have a SME V arm which costs new about £2300; a DV17D3 karat cartridge which costs new about £700 new, and a Dynavector P75 mk II which costs about £600 new.These all sit on a SME 20/2 and a naim set-up (200 and 202 etc).

You can see that already the P75 is the least costly of the three and if I were to go say bottom rung Koetsu then this would be about £1700, and about three times the cost of the phono stage.

What do people think?

Best wishes

Andy

Best bang for your buck is an nice used LP12. Great second hand buy, as the LP12 is a collection of engineered parts that can all be changed and swapped from plinths to power supplies, sub chassis, arms etc. A well set-up one also sounds good too.

Turntable, arm and cartridge in order of importance, though cartridges have a big influence on tonality. Phono stage also very important.

 

[sonddek]

Best bang for your buck is an nice used LP12. Great second hand buy, as the LP12 is a collection of engineered parts that can all be changed and swapped from plinths to power supplies, sub chassis, arms etc. A well set-up one also sounds good too.

The original poster has an SME 20. Even if he had never used a turntable I wouldn't agree with your advice as there are many motor units which have better speed stability and are much easier to set up and maintain, but suggesting a used LP12 to an SME 20 user on the strength of its "engineered parts" seems to be something of an unintended irony.

 

[topoxforddoc]

A wet record cleaner is the best upgrade for vinyl. I doesn't matter how good your set up is, if the grooves are full of cr*p!

 

[sonddek]

A wet record cleaner is the best upgrade for vinyl. I doesn't matter how good your set up is, if the grooves are full of cr*p!

Depending on how many records you have, PVA might give you more bang for buck than a wetvac. A one gallon can of PVA costs 12 quid and I estimate it would clean about a thousand records: http://www.thetoolvault.com/product.php/site/froogle/sn/EVOEBPVA5L

 

[topoxforddoc]

Depending on how many records you have, PVA might give you more bang for buck than a wetvac. A one gallon can of PVA costs 12 quid and I estimate it would clean about a thousand records: http://www.thetoolvault.com/product.php/site/froogle/sn/EVOEBPVA5L

PVA is cheap, but my time is more valuable. I can clean a LP every 2 minutes on a wet rcm and have it to play 30 mins later (when everything has evaporated completely). A wet rcm is also less messy (but a bit noisier, I would admit)

 

[sonddek]

PVA is cheap, but my time is more valuable...
...A wet rcm is also less messy...

Have you actually used the PVA method? There's no mess, and it takes up no more of your time than a wetvac. That is, if you have the intelligence not to sit there watching the glue dry.

 

[flapland]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I did get in touch with James at Whest and I think I've got a pretty decent deal - a 2011 30R with a 5 year warranty, and he gave me a decent trade-in for my P75 too. In view of the fact that the karat cart is about 6 months old, probably that was the way to go. A Koetsu perhaps when the current cart has had it...

I'm really looking forward to hearing this Whest phono in my set-up. Only ever had the P75 which moved with me from the naim 5i integrated and gyro to what I have now....

Thanks again

Andy

This almost exactly the same as what I did except my PS30r is a little older not that you can tell as it looks mint. I also p/x a P75.

 

[yeti42]

Strange no one's mentioned the Superline if you have a Naim pre, power it from the preamp, you want loading plugs of 470 Ohms and 470pF for a 17D3 but the 500 Ohm one that comes as standard will do for a demo. Don't put it on a steel rack.

 

[Andy1912]

Strange no one's mentioned the Superline if you have a Naim pre, power it from the preamp, you want loading plugs of 470 Ohms and 470pF for a 17D3 but the 500 Ohm one that comes as standard will do for a demo. Don't put it on a steel rack.

Yes i did ask about how the superline compared to the whest but no one commented...

Best wishes

Andy

 

[YNWOAN]

I've compared the Superline in the past; I think I did some needle-drops (I've never even seen a Whest in the flesh though).

I would definitely place the deck first, the arm second and the cartridge and phono-stage a joint third.

 

[Andy1912]

I've compared the Superline in the past; I think I did some needle-drops (I've never even seen a Whest in the flesh though).

I would definitely place the deck first, the arm second and the cartridge and phono-stage a joint third.

OK thanks-the phono is probably slightly weak relatively speaking which was the general consensus. Id like to try a koetsu when the 17d3 runs down (unless i can get a swap) so the phono would be some distance behind then...

 

[tenpercenter]

The original poster has an SME 20. Even if he had never used a turntable I wouldn't agree with your advice as there are many motor units which have better speed stability and are much easier to set up and maintain, but suggesting a used LP12 to an SME 20 user on the strength of its "engineered parts" seems to be something of an unintended irony.

Exactly. Sell the SME gear, nice used LP12. Best bang for your buck.

Enjoy music and not hifi.

 

[Darth Vader]

OK thanks-the phono is probably slightly weak relatively speaking which was the general consensus. Id like to try a koetsu when the 17d3 runs down (unless i can get a swap) so the phono would be some distance behind then...

I really would suggest that you get a loan/audition of a quality phono stage at the £2K+ new price arena. When I did this it was like a complete TT/arm/cart upgrade and gave me 3 more years before I upgraded the vinyl front end from an LP12/Ittok/Troika to a hideously expensive set-up.

If you get a phono with in-built pre-amplification then you can get rid of the NAC202. I haven't heard that preamp but guess that it may be similar to the 102 and that wasn't very good IMO.

Think of it this way no matter how good and clear the light coming through a window is if that window is partially obscured then you wont see all that light. So open the window wide and let the light shine through.

Cheers,

DV

 

[sonddek]

Exactly. Sell the SME gear, nice used LP12. Best bang for your buck.

Enjoy music and not hifi.

Do you mean Musik™. To be honest, as a Sondek user of twenty-six years, I've never enjoyed music more than the last year, since I stopped using my Sondek. I had given up buying records. Now I'm buying more vinyl than ever and enjoying it more than ever. I have arrived at the opinion that the Sondek is a great deck for sound, a hi-fi commodity, but other decks are better at music. To my ear a Sondek always wins the timbre-dem but loses the tune-dem against some fairly modest competition. Perhaps one need look no further than wow/flutter measurements of 0.08%, when a well-known DJ deck is allegedly down at 0.025%. In other words, I believe the opposite. Don't get a Sondek if your primary concern is the music, not the hi-fi.

Just my minority opinion, not an invitation to a flame-war.

 

[tenpercenter]

Do you mean Musik™. To be honest, as a Sondek user of twenty-six years, I've never enjoyed music more than the last year, since I stopped using my Sondek. I had given up buying records. Now I'm buying more vinyl than ever and enjoying it more than ever. I have arrived at the opinion that the Sondek is a great deck for sound, a hi-fi commodity, but other decks are better at music. To my ear a Sondek always wins the timbre-dem but loses the tune-dem against some fairly modest competition. Perhaps one need look no further than wow/flutter measurements of 0.08%, when a well-known DJ deck is allegedly down at 0.025%. In other words, I believe the opposite. Don't get a Sondek if your primary concern is the music, not the hi-fi.

Just my minority opinion, not an invitation to a flame-war.

If it works for you then that is great - especially if you are buying lots more vinyl. As you say, your opnion is valid expressed from your experience and perspective which is partly why discussion forums exist. Therefore, there was no real need for you to quote "alleged" wow and flutter values as some kind of justification for your position and to also have a swipe at the LP12 - utterly pointless and totally meaningless.

Not an invitation to a flame war, enjoy your new vinyl.

 

[sonddek]

If it works for you then that is great - especially if you are buying lots more vinyl. As you say, your opnion is valid expressed from your experience and perspective which is partly why discussion forums exist. Therefore, there was no real need for you to quote "alleged" wow and flutter values as some kind of justification for your position and to also have a swipe at the LP12 - utterly pointless and totally meaningless.

Not an invitation to a flame war, enjoy your new vinyl.

The wow/flutter percentages I quote come from a recent magazine test of Sondek, and from the manufacturer's published spec for the Technics. I quite accept that they may both be anomalous or misleading, hence the use of "allegedly". I suspect that the recent magazine test was quite good. I also think that Panasonic put quite a lot of engineering effort into their decks' wow performance back in the 70's, so I don't have any reason to doubt their figures. On top of all this, I imagine that I can sometimes hear pianos going out of tune from one second to the next on standard Radikal and Lingo Sondeks. Perhaps that's what 0.08% wow sounds like, or perhaps I just imagine it. Before anyone asks, I haven't done a proper abx test to prove to myself that I can hear 0.08% wow, but I have posted needledrops on several threads about this, including methods to stabilise the Sondek subchassis in a way that, to my ear, overcomes what I hear as a pitch stability problem. There is some research cited on the Well Tempered Labs web site which suggests that listeners are able to distinguish wow down to about 0.06%, so that would put recently measured Sondek wow in the just audible band.