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vinyl: where do you get the best bang per buck?

The wow/flutter percentages I quote come from a recent magazine test of Sondek, and from the manufacturer's published spec for the Technics. I quite accept that they may both be anomalous or misleading, hence the use of "allegedly". I suspect that the recent magazine test was quite good. I also think that Panasonic put quite a lot of engineering effort into their decks' wow performance back in the 70's, so I don't have any reason to doubt their figures. On top of all this, I imagine that I can sometimes hear pianos going out of tune from one second to the next on standard Radikal and Lingo Sondeks. Perhaps that's what 0.08% wow sounds like, or perhaps I just imagine it. Before anyone asks, I haven't done a proper abx test to prove to myself that I can hear 0.08% wow, but I have posted needledrops on several threads about this, including methods to stabilise the Sondek subchassis in a way that, to my ear, overcomes what I hear as a pitch stability problem. There is some research cited on the Well Tempered Labs web site which suggests that listeners are able to distinguish wow down to about 0.06%, so that would put recently measured Sondek wow in the just audible band.

I get that on certain records and it is the recording for whatever reason as all other records are fine.

So if it can be reproduced its the recording if its random its the deck.

Cheers,

DV
 
I get that on certain records and it is the recording for whatever reason as all other records are fine.

So if it can be reproduced its the recording if its random its the deck.

I'm actually talking about a phenomenon that I have heard on five different Sondeks but not when I play the very same record on several other turntables including Technics SL-1200, Well Tempered Amadeus, Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace, Avid Volvere and Origin Live Calypso. I also find the phenomenon absent on CD. I can rule out wow in the vinyl recording because none of those decks disagree in this respect with the CD, and I can rule out variety of presentation because I don't find any disagreement between all these other turntables in their presentation of said piano notes. I find the Sondek the odd one out for several specific instances of piano music. I am also able completely to remedy what I hear as a pitch stability problem on the Sondek by tethering the subchassis so that it is less free to move horizontally. I claim not that tethering is an overall improvement, but simply that it cures the wandering pitch problem that I hear. Some have corroborated this finding, and others have dismissed it, so I accept it is controversial. Putting all that together, I'm satisfied that it is a form of wow inherent in the drive/suspension design of the Sondek, and that's why I find the suggestion of cross-grading from SME 20 to Sondek questionable. Just my point of view, of course.
 
I too have heard this pitch instability on a friends LP12, something he cannot , I have noted and corroborate your findings as I donot get it on the same recording on either of my AVIDS (diva2 or volvere).




I'm actually talking about a phenomenon that I have heard on five different Sondeks but not when I play the very same record on several other turntables including Technics SL-1200, Well Tempered Amadeus, Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace, Avid Volvere and Origin Live Calypso. I also find the phenomenon absent on CD. I can rule out wow in the vinyl recording because none of those decks disagree in this respect with the CD, and I can rule out variety of presentation because I don't find any disagreement between all these other turntables in their presentation of said piano notes. I find the Sondek the odd one out for several specific instances of piano music. I am also able completely to remedy what I hear as a pitch stability problem on the Sondek by tethering the subchassis so that it is less free to move horizontally. I claim not that tethering is an overall improvement, but simply that it cures the wandering pitch problem that I hear. Some have corroborated this finding, and others have dismissed it, so I accept it is controversial. Putting all that together, I'm satisfied that it is a form of wow inherent in the drive/suspension design of the Sondek, and that's why I find the suggestion of cross-grading from SME 20 to Sondek questionable. Just my point of view, of course.
 
I'm actually talking about a phenomenon that I have heard on five different Sondeks but not when I play the very same record on several other turntables including Technics SL-1200, Well Tempered Amadeus, Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace, Avid Volvere and Origin Live Calypso. I also find the phenomenon absent on CD. I can rule out wow in the vinyl recording because none of those decks disagree in this respect with the CD, and I can rule out variety of presentation because I don't find any disagreement between all these other turntables in their presentation of said piano notes. I find the Sondek the odd one out for several specific instances of piano music. I am also able completely to remedy what I hear as a pitch stability problem on the Sondek by tethering the subchassis so that it is less free to move horizontally. I claim not that tethering is an overall improvement, but simply that it cures the wandering pitch problem that I hear. Some have corroborated this finding, and others have dismissed it, so I accept it is controversial. Putting all that together, I'm satisfied that it is a form of wow inherent in the drive/suspension design of the Sondek, and that's why I find the suggestion of cross-grading from SME 20 to Sondek questionable. Just my point of view, of course.

This is an interesting discussion and its not necessarily an LP12 knocking discussion. Is the pitch variation random or at a specific passage in the music? This is the scientist in me asking the question.

When I had an LP12 I sometimes heard this to a minor degree and just ignored it. But now I have an uber quality and expensive vinyl playing system I can hear this pitch change quite dramatically so much so that I checked everything out in case something was broken but only occurred on specific records. So I think that some records do have this recorded on them if and only if it is always in the same place. Another conclusion might be that the LP12 is better than the other decks because it actually shows whats on the record. However there could be other conclusions and I have some in mind but that would need more experiments before a reliable conclusion can be reached.

Cheers and enjoy,

DV
 
When I had an LP12 I sometimes heard this to a minor degree and just ignored it. But now I have an uber quality and expensive vinyl playing system I can hear this pitch change quite dramatically so much so that I checked everything out in case something was broken but only occurred on specific records. So I think that some records do have this recorded on them if and only if it is always in the same place. Another conclusion might be that the LP12 is better than the other decks because it actually shows whats on the record. However there could be other conclusions and I have some in mind but that would need more experiments before a reliable conclusion can be reached.

I'm talking about subtle pitch variation which is not evident on all those other machines. It's not just that they disagree with the Sondek on whether it's in the recording, it's more that they all agree that it isn't there. The Sondek suggests the piano is being de-tuned repeatedly during the performance whereas all those other machines somehow agree that it was not de-tuned during the performance. The odd-one-out reports bizarre goings on in a recording studio, consistent either with playback wow, or someone de-tuning a piano as it's being played. The others all agree there was no de-tuning. I have given up believing that the Sondek reveals what others don't, and have reached the conclusion that it has audible wow, fixable by tethering the subchassis.

In other words, don't cross-grade the SME for a Sondek if you like tunes, spend the money on a nice phono stage.
 
I'm talking about subtle pitch variation which is not evident on all those other machines. It's not just that they disagree with the Sondek on whether it's in the recording, it's more that they all agree that it isn't there. The Sondek suggests the piano is being de-tuned repeatedly during the performance whereas all those other machines somehow agree that it was not de-tuned during the performance. The odd-one-out reports bizarre goings on in a recording studio, consistent either with playback wow, or someone de-tuning a piano as it's being played. The others all agree there was no de-tuning. I have given up believing that the Sondek reveals what others don't, and have reached the conclusion that it has audible wow, fixable by tethering the subchassis.

In other words, don't cross-grade the SME for a Sondek if you like tunes, spend the money on a nice phono stage.
I really should know better than reply to these unresolvable threads, but this particular thread has made me wonder about several factors:
1) if you have been listening to modified non-standard LP12's and how well these have been set-up?
2) Have you compared using the same arm and cartridge combinations
3) Have you actually listened to sound of a real piano, played by a real human? The way notes are played / the keys struck can influence how they sound significantly.
4) How do different people actually listen to music and what do they think is important ?

The notion of perfect pitch when I play guitar is not something that I hear or care about.

It's all about the muse, man.

A nice used LP12 is still the best bang per buck in the hifi world.
 
1) if you have been listening to modified non-standard LP12's and how well these have been set-up?

I include demonstration decks set up by Colin Macey and Derek Jenkins in my recent experience. One thing that strikes me is the consistency with which the LP12 can pull off this trick of very subtle pitch-bending acoustic piano. It doesn't seem to matter which power supply, subchassis or downstream kit is used. That is what makes me think it is a feature of the suspension/drive design. I have not listened to a funk-vectored or spoked LP12 as a cross-reference, but it would not surprise me if those modifications went some way toward solving this particular bug-bear.

2) Have you compared using the same arm and cartridge combinations

I have compared full-spec Klimax SE Sondeks to Technics/Ekos II/Arkiv Boron and Technics/Ekos II/XX-2 and Amadeus/XX-2. I have also compared LP12/Lingo/Greenstreet/EkosII with various cartridges against Technics/EkosII by rapidly switching the arm from Sondek to Technics. I have also compared LP12/Lingo/Greenstreet/EkosII to Amadeus using the very same cartridges.

3) Have you actually listened to sound of a real piano, played by a real human? The way notes are played / the keys struck can influence how they sound significantly.

I listen to real pianos being played fairly often, and I am familiar with the sound they make.

4) How do different people actually listen to music and what do they think is important?

Unfortunately, it seems to me that in comparisons and dem rooms people often resort to listening to less important things like frequency response, and imaging. Accurate tunefulness isn't always a priority. Maybe it shouldn't be.

The notion of perfect pitch when I play guitar is not something that I hear or care about.

Nevertheless, it is very fundamental to the accurate reproduction of musical intent. You would prefer a guitar which stayed accurately in tune from one second to the next, even if you didn't know why it sounded better.

A nice used LP12 is still the best bang per buck in the hifi world.

I used to think that until I bothered to compare it rigorously. I now think that a Technics SL1200 is better bang for buck. With 3.5 million of them in the world, it took the onset of middle-age and a more enquiring approach for me to realise that the market had a point after all.

However, I accept that this level of pitch stability is not important to all listeners, and the Sondek is an exceptional deck in many many other ways.
 
i noticed the same phenomenon on some of the LP12 needle drops posted on here: a very slight wobbliness in the pitch of some notes that was not to be heard with the exact same record played on other decks (the Talking Heads' "And She Was" was the tune). It is very slight and it took me a while to notice it. The SME20 in that particular comparison was very pitch accurate.
 
Oh no here we go again.

Show me the evidence for dynamic wow on the lp12.......none I have seen so far.

You may not like what it does but come on, the stylus slowing the platter when driven by a motor, not heard this.
 
I thought I'd search for Linn LP12 and wow on the net and it came back with a number of articles saying Wow! :)

I then changed the search to look for dynamic wow and found something more interesting (from SRM/Tech's website)

"If the drive system of the turntable is contaminated it will cause belt slippage which manifests itself as dynamic wow. This type of wow is not noticeable as pitch instability, but it causes 'smearing' of transient detail, making the deck sound lifeless and lacklustre. Grease can get on to the belt every time you handle it, building up around the motor pulley and the sub-platter or platter rim."

Belt and Drive System Cleaning Fluid

I have on a occasion used isopropyl alcohol and a cotton bud to clean the belt's path on my LP12, though I don't recall a notable difference.

I read elsewhere that a stretched belt can cause such problems as can a mat that slips.

If this is the cause, I wonder how other belt drive TT manufacturers have solved this issue. I know that Rega produced a white belt.

(I should add I have no connection with SRM/tech and have never used any their products. :D )
 
There's also the issue of belt "creep" - as the belt enters and leaves the pulleys it creeps - it is this that causes the phenomenon of dynamic "wow" and this will affect all belt drive turntables, by nature of the application, not just the LP12.

Factors to be mindful of.. In the manufacturers control: belt quality, (in Rega's case they now offer the white belt) Linn's belt is very good indeed and their pulley accuracy is top drawer.

Factors in the owners control; belt stretch, cleanliness of belt and pulleys as stated in ZK's post above, so don't be a skin flint when buying a new belt - always buy genuine.

If one is concentrating so much on listening for the slightest issues with pitch stability, is one really enjoying the music or just getting hung up on issues that just do not irritate many music enthusiasts?

If we wished for better speed accuracy with belt drive systems surely synchronous (timing) belts could be adopted - so why haven't they? Quite simply this is due to a little issue called noise.

Regards

John R.
 
The most noticeable difference is always the transducer, be that at the front or back end of the system. So, in respect of the OP’s post, change the cartridge or cart/arm (as they need to work as a combo).
 
I'm coming to this late, so a clarification question; Sondek, have you heard the wow on specific recordings repeatedly or is it an entirely random effect. I mean, do you have to sit there and catch the Lp12 with its pants down, then cry Eureka when it pisses, or are you able to reliably demonstrate that it gets the tuning wrong on certain passages of music? If its the latter could you give some examples that we can try at home.
 
To be honest, I don't want to derail the thread any further than I already have, so this is best discussed in the previous threads on this subject. Unfortunately I can't find the PFM threads where I last discussed this issue, but here's one on the Linn forum:
http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=12841

I have made my assessment of this issue using several records, but primarily a single pressing of American Pie by Don Maclean. I don't have special affection for this record, so that's why I chose to use it as a repetitive test track - it's no tragedy if I end up hating it. At the beginning of the song before the throng joins in there are several sustained piano chords delivered alongside the singing. I have found five separate Sondeks to fail in keeping those chords in tune over several seconds, in more or less the same fashion, whereas no other source I've listened to recently has struggled to keep that piano in tune. For that reason, I am very skeptical that this phenomenon is down to a greasy belt or other slippery excuse. Moreover, I find that tethering the Sondek's subchassis to the plinth completely cures the problem while unfortunately introducing other demerits.

I'm sorry to bore those who have already listened to this and who disagree with my opinion, but some listeners have agreed that they hear what I hear, so I accept that it is inconclusive. Each of us must make up his own mind. I hear some of the piano chords getting sharper during sustain in a way that a piano doesn't. Other sources play the chords as I would expect to hear them.

In the end this is a subtle effect, and if the Sondek's wow spec really is 0.08% then it is close to inaudible. Some listeners may not notice the effect or care about it. It's a great deck, but IMO it's outclassed in the wow department by several other decks. That may not be an issue for you. For me it makes the suggestion of cross-grading from SME20 to Sondek highly scrutable.

If you want to continue this discussion, let's take it to another thread. I think a later stage in the spoke thread here on PFM dealt with this issue, for example.
 
Just to complete this thread.... I did eventually opt for a new phono stage and special thanks to flapland for his suggestion, as I ended up buying a Whest 30R at what I thought was a very reasonable cost (included a trade-in of my P75). As you would expect the difference is substantial in the usual ways (more sophisticated, wider and deeper soundstage; greater clarity, unearthing of previously unnoticed aspects of LPs and so on). I guess you would expect that in view of the retail prices of the P75 and 30R.

Whether I would have got more bang for the buck elsewhere is impossible to say, but for sure the SME 20 sounds like a considerably better TT now, and I thought it was great beforehand. Right now I'm enjoying putting on my favourite LPs and hearing them afresh :)

Best wishes

Andy
 
heres my 2ps worth..turntable, arm, cart...none of these..if you have a pre amp and a power amp..the greatest change is the interconnects between amp and pre amp...in my humble opinion..spend the money here..my interconnects cost more than my hi fi eqpt..most reviewers say..if your eqpt is good enough, use these expensive interconnects..the assumption being that super duper hifi can only show super duper interconnects in their best light..it made my average hifi sound super duper..example..my mate came round to have a listen.i put on a well recorded jazz lp, he said it was the best that he had heard..! the thing was..the pre amp and power amp used to be his..the only difference were the interconnects?
 
Andy1912

Really glad James was able to sort you out and even more your delighted with the outcome. Did you visit him, if so you have to agree its a nice office system and some great vinyl as well.
 
Andy glad you got sorted in the end, I'm still very tempted by the W30. Has anyone heard it against a TE Groove? (even using cheap cables, lol)
 
No I couldn't visit him sadly as I'm located up in Aberdeen. He certainly was very helpful though and I'd definitely do business with him again. To be frank, the deal I got was so good that even if I didn't like it, then I could re-sell and probably lose nothing. The 30R is quite shockingly large, I have to say - I was taken aback especially as the P75 is so small. It only just fits in my isoblue rack and is pretty much the size of my naim 200 power amp!! I've not heard the TE so sorry can't comment. I was always planning a superline, I guess (I have an all naim amp system), but to be honest I'm pleased to not be caught up in the whole power supply thing....

Best wishes

Andy
 


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