Trump Part 12

[merlin]

Racists the lot of them. Probably offensive to some of PFM.

 

[Tony L]

It was a different time. We have the information and technology to target far more accurately than that now. Any intelligent person would do so, as I would hope any intelligent person would choose not to drink at your bar! I would certainly walk out if I saw the racism you describe on this thread.

 

[merlin]

It was a different time.

I would disagree. You would walk out. You would be in the minority (certainly over here) and yet you are clearly an intelligent person. I appreciate that your posts are purely expressing a personally held moral belief. So were the banners above. So were those who boycotted the Olympics.

So were those organising sit ins at Universities and riots in the streets of US cities in defence of civil rights. There were intelligent men and women involved. The debate over non violent and violent tactics remained throughout that period and continues in any moral struggle. What we are doing is non violent and is our right under Thailand's law.

In 2006, two of Britain's lecturers' unions, the National Association of Teachers in Further Education and the Association of University Teachers voted to support an academic boycott against Israel. Intelligent?

In 2013 the Teachers Union Of Ireland passed a motion calling for an academic boycott of Israel. In January 2016, 168 Italian academics and researchers published a call to boycott Israeli academic institutions. Can you really sit there and refer to these people as unintelligent? Would you not agree that the boycotts are sweeping?

You say technology allows for more accurate targeting but the evidence in the US is that people gravitate towards the targeted information that reinforces their stereotypes and increases their prejudices. Technology serves to pull coherent societies apart. There is no evidence AFAIK to suggest it does the opposite in the Western world at least.

So intelligent people are still involved in militant groups and taking direct action against those associated (however loosely) with civil rights abuses. They always have and always will thank heavens. The politically correct left does not have exclusivity on intelligence Tony - as evidenced by the right wing politicians who rise to power and the (predominately) right wing business leaders who contrive to fill their bank accounts with the money of others.

 

[gassor]

So intelligent people are still involved in militant groups and taking direct action against those associated (however loosely) with civil rights abuses.

Not in Thailand they aren't. You are in favour of direct action against civil right abuses and go to live in a country which sees you imprisoned and tortured for just criticising the military dictatorship. What kind of morality allows you do that?

 

[Tony L]

In 2013 the Teachers Union Of Ireland passed a motion calling for an academic boycott of Israel. In January 2016, 168 Italian academics and researchers published a call to boycott Israeli academic institutions. Can you really sit there and refer to these people as unintelligent? Would you not agree that the boycotts are sweeping?

I’d argue they were dumb compared to someone like say Daniel Barrenboim who crosses divides to bring intellegent like-minded people together. His East West Divan Orchestra mixes Palestinians, Jews and Arabs to wonderful effect and is a whole different intellectual ballpark to your bigoted take on a ‘No blacks, No Irish, No dogs’ poster.

 

[droodzilla]

drood.

i am really enjoying the new essay-style postings from you and other people over the past couple of weeks. i feel glad to be part of this twitter counter-revolution. i need to get back to PsB first and will then comment on some of what you've written. as may have noticed in another thread, i have had a profound religious experience over the weekend and need to get my act together, catch up with work, etc.

cheers.

Thanks vuk, I look forward to reading your thoughts. The convergence of some on the Left with the tactics (if not the aims) of the far Right has disturbed me so a lot of what I wrote was me thinking aloud, trying to make sense of it, and my own beliefs. It's good therapy, if nothing else!

 

[merlin]

I’d argue they were dumb compared to someone like say Daniel Barrenboim who crosses divides to bring intellegent like-minded people together. His East West Divan Orchestra mixes Palestinians, Jews and Arabs to wonderful effect and is a whole different intellectual ballpark to your bigoted take on a ‘No blacks, No Irish, No dogs’ poster.

So three large unions of professional academics are bigoted and ralatively dumb then Tony?

As clearly were the intellectuals standing up to Nazi Germany?

Forgive me. If you were not the site owner, the would be where I would ridicule relentlessly. Those posts really give me free reign.

Here is a précis of what has happened to date...

I post that I am taking direct action against Americans to make them aware of the feelings of others.

You infer I am a bigot and racist.

I explain the position, make the comparison to the anti apartheid movement and ask for examples of how you and others would tackle the crisis.

None of any value are forthcoming but I am still a bigot.

I show evidence of similar attitudes to Nazis and Fascists.

you tell me that was a different time and my views are bigoted outdated and a little stupid.

I ask for evidence that modern media prevents the increase in discrimination and intolerance.

Nothing forthcoming (again) and I am still a bigot. Unintelligent now too

I show evidence of substantial numbers of academics boycotting whole countries in university settings - I.e. in any way they can

you tell me these academics are also bigots and relatively unintelligent.

Do you see where we are going with this Tony?

finally. who the **** is Daniel wasisname? the fact that just about no one I know has ever heard of him ( and of course that Jewish attitudes are as extreme as ever) shows the efficacy of his protests.

 

[Tony L]

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for doing as much damage to the Republican/alt-right/Tea Party 40 odd percent of America as I can in a targeted manner, I just refuse to lash out at the thoroughly decent 60% or so.

PS Just out of interest would you throw black or Asian Americans out of your bar? I’m curious as to how consistent your bigotry is!

 

[droodzilla]

Drood, that's another very good post for the most part, IMO. My response to it and your previous one won't be anywhere near as well written but I'll give it a bash. It may not appear for a few days though as I'm kinda busy at the moment and I'll need a few hours at least to devote to it. We're talking a scientist vs a lorry driver here. This stuff is harder work for me

P.S. What I would say in the meantime is it might be worth considering that you've devoted many paragraphs of text to Trump, the investigation, the deep state (good points too), the progressive angle wrt it all etc, but only a short sentence in closing on the future of the Democratic Party.

My response will be much more focused on the latter, as I think it's very important in the grand scheme of things, it *currently being the only vehicle that can realistically remove Trump, weaken the deep state/media, and provide real change.

*There's much talk of forming a third party in some circles, but only talk at this point.

Later.

Cheers Max. If you're argument is that the Democrats need to get their own house in order you won't find much disagreement here. I just think progressives should not be "assisting" Trump and his far-right supporters in the meantime. Put another way, it's possible to both push for the reform of the Democrat Party and fight Trump with everything we have.

 

[droodzilla]

My problem with the phrase "deep state" is that, whatever minimal meaning it had in the first place, in practice it means the paranoid, delusions of the alt-right and Fox news. I think mostly other people use the phrase as they like the sound of the words -- it's undeniably satisfying to say -- and I generally take it as a sign of something along the spectrum that goes from uncritical thinking to conspiracy theory nutjob.

It's certainly so overloaded and useful to the far right and this administration that careful speakers avoid using it.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/13/donald-trump-white-house-steve-bannon-rich-higgins

PS Note in the above how Bannon and associates sound like the crazy left (as distinct from the intellectual and/or radical left).

You say that but I can assure you, having to type it so many times in my long post was purgatory!

 

[Joe Hutch]

finally. who the **** is Daniel wasisname? the fact that just about no one I know has ever heard of him ( and of course that Jewish attitudes are as extreme as ever) shows the efficacy of his protests.

Your arrogance is matched only by your ignorance. Barenboim is one of the best-known classical conductors and pianists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Barenboim

Daniel Barenboim[a] (born 15 November 1942) is an Argentine-Israeli pianist and conductor who is a citizen of Argentina, Israel, Palestine, and Spain.

He is the general music director of the Berlin State Opera, and the Staatskapelle Berlin; he previously served as Music Director of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, the Orchestre de Paris and La Scala in Milan.[2] Barenboim is known for his work with the West–Eastern Divan Orchestra, a Seville-based orchestra of young Arab and Israeli musicians, and as a resolute critic of the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.

Barenboim has received many awards and prizes, including an honorary Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire,[3]France's Légion d'honneur both as a Commander and Grand Officier, and the German Großes Bundesverdienstkreuz and Willy Brandt Award.[4] Together with the Palestinian-American scholar Edward Said, he was given Spain's Prince of Asturias Concord Award. He has won seven Grammy awards for his work and discography. Barenboim is a polyglot, fluent in Spanish, Hebrew, English, French, Italian, and German.

 

[Stunsworth]

finally. who the **** is Daniel wasisname? the fact that just about no one I know has ever heard of him ( and of course that Jewish attitudes are as extreme as ever) shows the efficacy of his protests.

He’s one of the most famous classical musicians in the world and has been playing and conducting since the early 60s.

 

[merlin]

Ah the classical music buffs are up in arms now too.

I wouldn't have heard of him because I don't listen to classical (although Pierre did introduce me to some wonderful piano concertos recently that may well have sparked an interest.) It is an area where I am profoundly ignorant and happy to confess to that. I suspect there might be some issues or physical entities on the planet ( of at least equal import) that even you are ignorant of Joe

I will ask what percentage of the global population have any interest in Western classical music and knowledge of its artists? I will then ask what percentage of the planet's population watch the news and see protests overseas. I'll ask if a viral post on Facebook has greater reach than this chap's recordings?

Again. no one I personally know has ever heard of him( with the exception thinking about it of the knowledgable Pierre!). They've all heard of Nelson Mandela and Stevie Wonder.

 

[merlin]

PS Just out of interest would you throw black or Asian Americans out of your bar? I’m curious as to how consistent your bigotry is!

Yes Tony - but with a heavy heart as both ethnic groups are more than familiar with descrimination at home.

It has to be one rule however for all Americans - just as there will be one rule for all Muslims.

 

[gassor]

There is no morality to the above just stupidity.

 

[russel]

tony.

quite frankly, i CAN NOT understand why this has not caused people to behead their politicians. not only are both men sexual abusers, but we are in the midst of a massive cultural frenzy about this sort of thing! i just don't get it -- actually, maybe i do: the media are not connecting the dots forcefully enough.

The large number of people coming forward is part of a movement to make it unacceptable for sexual harassment to take place, once it's generally accepted, then Trump can be brought to justice, I notice Nikki Haley, US ambassador to the UN has recently spoken out that Trump's accusers should be heard.

 

[Guest432]

Don't think any of you have realised that Merlin has handed over his laptop to his teenage grandson who is now happily trolling pfm.

 

[Yank]

This is what the UK far right is feeding to American right wing audiences, and they're lapping it up. I assume she'd be laughed off the dais if she attempted to deliver the same screed in her home country?

 

[maxflinn]

 

[vuk]

The large number of people coming forward is part of a movement to make it unacceptable for sexual harassment to take place, once it's generally accepted, then Trump can be brought to justice, I notice Nikki Haley, US ambassador to the UN has recently spoken out that Trump's accusers should be heard.

russel.

why does the MSM not make a feast of this? why? all those people talking about bringing down trump by any means should be all for it. given the current mood, it's like presenting luka^H^H^H salah with an open goal.