mikesnowdon
resU deretsigeR
As far as I recall its just a set of 4 screws. I just re-used them to attach the new one. My wooden 'chopping boards' (see earlier pic) were from Sainsburys supermarket - £5 each. Are you UK based?
TDL TRL2
- Thread starter gregor
- Start date
Nope... Johannesburg, South Africa..
I have a RTL3 XO.
Both the RTL2 and RTL3 have identical board layouts
Both the RTL2 & RTL3 have the 10Uf and 6uF caps on the respect paths
Only the RTL2 has the 1.5Ohm Resister. On the RTL3 there is a jumper.
The RTL has a 22Ohm Resistor, where as the RTL3 has a 10Ohm Resistor on the Midrange path.
RTL3 upgrade plan :
Replace caps and Resistors as per current specs.
I let the morels settle and then maybe add a resistor to tame the Morel's if needed.
time will tell
Both the RTL2 and RTL3 have identical board layouts
Both the RTL2 & RTL3 have the 10Uf and 6uF caps on the respect paths
Only the RTL2 has the 1.5Ohm Resister. On the RTL3 there is a jumper.
The RTL has a 22Ohm Resistor, where as the RTL3 has a 10Ohm Resistor on the Midrange path.
RTL3 upgrade plan :
Replace caps and Resistors as per current specs.
I let the morels settle and then maybe add a resistor to tame the Morel's if needed.
time will tell
mikesnowdon
resU deretsigeR
Good plan.
DSJR
Between us and them
The RTL 3 crossover was different, as the tweeter didn't need to be attenuated.
Change the 10 Ohm resistor across the mid coil (?) for a 15 or 20 Ohm one (can't remember which). the midrange was pulled down a bit in level to get a little of the TDL Loudness switch balance they liked on the bigger models. The sacrifice is the impedance drops sharply in the mid to around 3 to 4 Ohms as I recall. Incresing the value of that resistor lifts the mid in level and increases the impedance too, making the speaker more lively in the mid with little obvious sacrifice of bass, the top is apparently a bit sweeter too and the impedance is FAR more amp friendly, so you won't risk overheating. The RTL3 thus "done" sounds more like an RTL2 on steroids afterwardsD)
Change the 10 Ohm resistor across the mid coil (?) for a 15 or 20 Ohm one (can't remember which). the midrange was pulled down a bit in level to get a little of the TDL Loudness switch balance they liked on the bigger models. The sacrifice is the impedance drops sharply in the mid to around 3 to 4 Ohms as I recall. Incresing the value of that resistor lifts the mid in level and increases the impedance too, making the speaker more lively in the mid with little obvious sacrifice of bass, the top is apparently a bit sweeter too and the impedance is FAR more amp friendly, so you won't risk overheating. The RTL3 thus "done" sounds more like an RTL2 on steroids afterwards
D)handygrandad
Active Member
Crossover Update
You may recall I have upgraded an RTL Mk1, using an RTL Mk2 as a reference. In my last posting I was wrestling with a feeling that something didn't sound right - the Morels seemed to be less integrated than I would have liked. You may recall, I had ordered additional resistors, 2.4Ohm and 2.7Ohm to try, in place of the 2.2Ohm.
After considerable time spent testing out each combination, I was no further forward ... so I did a bit of reading ...
Although I am not an audio engineer (far from it), I began to realize that the the in-series resistor was not, (as I had first thought), to compensate for the greater "efficiency" of the tweeter but to compensate for the difference in impedance ! The original Vifa and Peerless tweeters were around 6 Ohm, where as the Morels are 8 Ohms and are already a reasonable match with the Bass/Mid unit.
To cut a (very) long story short. I replaced the 2.2Ohm resistor with a length of wire to maintain the circuit ... and ... what an incredible improvement !!!
It was a bit like discovering the single eye focus ring on a pair of binoculars ... everything seemed to come into clear focus.
I liked the Morels before, but now I am really impressed ! If anyone out there has installed Morels, and still has a single resistor in series with the tweeter (1.5Ohm, 2.2Ohm etc), I strongly reccomend you remove it !
For information I have included two links below which helped me (by a process of elimination) to understand the function of the in-series resistor.
If it is necessary to lower the output of the tweeter, this would be acheived by adding two resistors (an L pad), one in series, the other in paralell, this has the effect of maintaining the resitance the amplifier sees. It also maintains the crossover frequency at it's original position. LINK
I also discovered the various (smilar) ways in which a crossover might be configured, and that it is possible to use different combinations of values to acheive the same result, although I am happy to trust the experts to calculate these for me. LINK
In conclusion, I am very impressed with the finished upgrade to my RTL2 Mk1, the sound is a world apart from the originals, and a substantial improvement on the Mk2s. The Morels have taken the speakers into that critical level of hi-fi, where, less than perfect source material or equipment, becomes more apparent.
Oh no ! ... ... (said the wife, who had learned to recognise the syptoms of yet another upgrade).
And so it goes ... .. Onward and upward to hi-fi Nirvana, whilst the children starve and the wife holds down three jobs to feed my addiction, (Only joking, she only has, two jobs)
You may recall I have upgraded an RTL Mk1, using an RTL Mk2 as a reference. In my last posting I was wrestling with a feeling that something didn't sound right - the Morels seemed to be less integrated than I would have liked. You may recall, I had ordered additional resistors, 2.4Ohm and 2.7Ohm to try, in place of the 2.2Ohm.
After considerable time spent testing out each combination, I was no further forward ... so I did a bit of reading ...
Although I am not an audio engineer (far from it), I began to realize that the the in-series resistor was not, (as I had first thought), to compensate for the greater "efficiency" of the tweeter but to compensate for the difference in impedance ! The original Vifa and Peerless tweeters were around 6 Ohm, where as the Morels are 8 Ohms and are already a reasonable match with the Bass/Mid unit.
To cut a (very) long story short. I replaced the 2.2Ohm resistor with a length of wire to maintain the circuit ... and ... what an incredible improvement !!!
It was a bit like discovering the single eye focus ring on a pair of binoculars ... everything seemed to come into clear focus.
I liked the Morels before, but now I am really impressed ! If anyone out there has installed Morels, and still has a single resistor in series with the tweeter (1.5Ohm, 2.2Ohm etc), I strongly reccomend you remove it !
For information I have included two links below which helped me (by a process of elimination) to understand the function of the in-series resistor.
If it is necessary to lower the output of the tweeter, this would be acheived by adding two resistors (an L pad), one in series, the other in paralell, this has the effect of maintaining the resitance the amplifier sees. It also maintains the crossover frequency at it's original position. LINK
I also discovered the various (smilar) ways in which a crossover might be configured, and that it is possible to use different combinations of values to acheive the same result, although I am happy to trust the experts to calculate these for me. LINK
In conclusion, I am very impressed with the finished upgrade to my RTL2 Mk1, the sound is a world apart from the originals, and a substantial improvement on the Mk2s. The Morels have taken the speakers into that critical level of hi-fi, where, less than perfect source material or equipment, becomes more apparent.
Oh no ! ... ... (said the wife, who had learned to recognise the syptoms of yet another upgrade).
And so it goes ... .. Onward and upward to hi-fi Nirvana, whilst the children starve and the wife holds down three jobs to feed my addiction, (Only joking, she only has, two jobs)
mikesnowdon
resU deretsigeR
It would be really interesting to see how these modifications affect the frequency response plots. Wish I had proper measuring gear and knew how to use it!
When I get my amp finished, I'm going to externalize the crossovers into their own little boxes. Probably I'll remove the components and 'hard-wire' the crossover. When I get there I'll have a play and try some of the things you have done. Looking forward to it!
Thanks for links too
When I get my amp finished, I'm going to externalize the crossovers into their own little boxes. Probably I'll remove the components and 'hard-wire' the crossover. When I get there I'll have a play and try some of the things you have done. Looking forward to it!
Thanks for links too
handygrandad
Active Member
Hi hg,
I'm doing my solering now...
, Just one thing, on an earlier post, you said you removed the 10Uf and the 22Ohm Resisitor, are they still missing with your current setup?handygrandad
Active Member
Yes, The 10uf and 22Ohm resistor were on the Mid/Bass circuit on the original Mk1 Crossover but they did not appear on the Mk2 crossover.Hi hg,
I'm doing my solering now...
In listening comparisons with the Mk2, the Mk1 always sounded like their was a dip in the midrange, but when I removed these two components the midrange improved.
So, in the end my crossover was identical to the Mk2. It was only after installing the Morels that I queried the odd resistor in line with the Tweeter. Removing this was like a little bit of magic. I haven't altered anything else since .... I am surprised how the sound continues to improve ... ... up till recently, I have suspected that the Morels might be a tad higher output than the mid/bass ... but as each week goes by they seem to sound better and better. I'ts difficult to tell if this is the Morels buning-in, or me adjusting to the sound.
mikesnowdon
resU deretsigeR
I found the sound - in my system - to be a little bright after adding the Morels. Not due to anything other that the higher output. This is why I changed the series resistor to 2.2ohm which calmed things down a little. however I am intrigued to try removing it after HG's comments above.
I haven't tried removing the 10uf/220ohm yet. To be honest I'm really happy with mine and feel the balance is just right, but I will try these mods at some point. It depends on your source/amp/room as to what 'voicing' sounds best for you. There no other way to know other than to experiment, thats to key to modding hi-fi
I haven't tried removing the 10uf/220ohm yet. To be honest I'm really happy with mine and feel the balance is just right, but I will try these mods at some point. It depends on your source/amp/room as to what 'voicing' sounds best for you. There no other way to know other than to experiment, thats to key to modding hi-fi
handygrandad
Active Member
Hi SonicBoom,
Just had an after thought ... ... the 10uf Cap and the 22Ohm Resistor are in parallel with the mid/bass unit, so, whilst you have soldering iron in hand, just release one end of these two components, that way it will be easy to replace them if you do not find the change to your taste. If you are happy with the change, then later you can just nip the other end with side cutters to remove them altogether.
In contrast, the other resisitor that I recommend you remove, is in series with the tweeter, and you will need to replace it with a short length of wire to complete the circuit.
Would be interested to know how you get on, and what differences you notice.
Just had an after thought ... ... the 10uf Cap and the 22Ohm Resistor are in parallel with the mid/bass unit, so, whilst you have soldering iron in hand, just release one end of these two components, that way it will be easy to replace them if you do not find the change to your taste. If you are happy with the change, then later you can just nip the other end with side cutters to remove them altogether.
In contrast, the other resisitor that I recommend you remove, is in series with the tweeter, and you will need to replace it with a short length of wire to complete the circuit.
Would be interested to know how you get on, and what differences you notice.
Hi HG,
I finished the upgrade yesterday and did the XO's for the RTL2 and the RTL3's. I only burnt my finger once.
I've only installed the RTL2's. The RTL3' are for next weekend.
The RTL2's have the new Morels, and the XO as per yours with the straight wire, however, I do also still have the 10uf and 22Ohm resister in place. I will run them for a week or so, then maybe unsolder the one side of the components and take another listen then see where it gets me.
On a musical note:
They are busy running in and so far the base seems to have tightened and the trebble more there and possibly brighter.
If I have the radio on and I'm in another room its noticably sharper and the tonal balance is not there. Hmm... luckily I don't listen to the radio a lot.
CD wise... alot of the stuff the I listern to is demanding of a tight bass and treble (Peter Gabrial, AfroCult, Orb, Dead Can Dance etc.) and after a few quick samples the balance is good. Bass is tight and deep and the treble is working well. I'll will let things settle and see where I end up. During the week a I will sample some Pink FLoyd, Shirly Bassey and some Classical and get a better feel for the mids.
I finished the upgrade yesterday and did the XO's for the RTL2 and the RTL3's. I only burnt my finger once.
I've only installed the RTL2's. The RTL3' are for next weekend.
The RTL2's have the new Morels, and the XO as per yours with the straight wire, however, I do also still have the 10uf and 22Ohm resister in place. I will run them for a week or so, then maybe unsolder the one side of the components and take another listen then see where it gets me.
On a musical note:
They are busy running in and so far the base seems to have tightened and the trebble more there and possibly brighter.
If I have the radio on and I'm in another room its noticably sharper and the tonal balance is not there. Hmm... luckily I don't listen to the radio a lot.
CD wise... alot of the stuff the I listern to is demanding of a tight bass and treble (Peter Gabrial, AfroCult, Orb, Dead Can Dance etc.) and after a few quick samples the balance is good. Bass is tight and deep and the treble is working well. I'll will let things settle and see where I end up. During the week a I will sample some Pink FLoyd, Shirly Bassey and some Classical and get a better feel for the mids.
handygrandad
Active Member
Sounds good so far ! (sorry about the pun)Hi HG,
I finished the upgrade yesterday and did the XO's for the RTL2 and the RTL3's. I only burnt my finger once.
I've only installed the RTL2's. The RTL3' are for next weekend.
The RTL2's have the new Morels, and the XO as per yours with the straight wire, however, I do also still have the 10uf and 22Ohm resister in place. I will run them for a week or so, then maybe unsolder the one side of the components and take another listen then see where it gets me.
On a musical note:
They are busy running in and so far the base seems to have tightened and the trebble more there and possibly brighter.
If I have the radio on and I'm in another room its noticably sharper and the tonal balance is not there. Hmm... luckily I don't listen to the radio a lot.
CD wise... alot of the stuff the I listern to is demanding of a tight bass and treble (Peter Gabrial, AfroCult, Orb, Dead Can Dance etc.) and after a few quick samples the balance is good. Bass is tight and deep and the treble is working well. I'll will let things settle and see where I end up. During the week a I will sample some Pink FLoyd, Shirly Bassey and some Classical and get a better feel for the mids.
Sometime ago you asked about the similarity of RTL2 and RTL3 crossover components. At the time I assumed they would be "very" different because I expected there would be two crossover points (between the 3 units) and that the crossover point to the tweeter would have been different.
Since then I have seen more info on the RTL3 and, it seems to me, that they kept the crossover point the same, and the mid/bass signal was shared by the two mid units. Anyway, whatever the case, it seems they do share some components of the same value after all.
Keep in touch, interested to know how things develop.
HG
mikesnowdon
resU deretsigeR
Theres a resistor in series with the tweeter for a reason....
Yip...
mikesnowdon
resU deretsigeR
Well I've been listening to my modded RTL2's without the tweeter resistor in place. They definitely sound brighter with more treble detail. Only thing is that I'm suffering from weak bass. Its not a problem with my source or amp, that is certain.
I'm wondering if it could be one of 2 things: The damping material is wrong, or my drive unit connections aren't correct.
Can anyone confirm the correct speaker connection points on the RTL2 crossover please?
I'm wondering if it could be one of 2 things: The damping material is wrong, or my drive unit connections aren't correct.
Can anyone confirm the correct speaker connection points on the RTL2 crossover please?
handygrandad
Active Member
Hi Mike, If you can hang on, for three or four days ... ... I will shortly be removing my RTL2 crossovers (again) ... when I try out my new Cyrus style active crossover/amp hybrid.
... I will take some pics of the crossovers for you with the connections highlighted.
Without looking, I can recall that the connections were "alternate" ie not in pairs, so it would be quite easy to make a mistake.
Re The Cyrus style active crossover ... I have had to leave this project for some months, what with Christmas, and then the freezing weather (no heating, in my loft/workshop) ... should have a full report with pics in a week or two.
... I will take some pics of the crossovers for you with the connections highlighted.
Without looking, I can recall that the connections were "alternate" ie not in pairs, so it would be quite easy to make a mistake.
Re The Cyrus style active crossover ... I have had to leave this project for some months, what with Christmas, and then the freezing weather (no heating, in my loft/workshop) ... should have a full report with pics in a week or two.
handygrandad
Active Member
Just had a thought - If by chance you have reversed the polarity on "one" of the bass drivers, they will be "out of phase" ... ... this is particularly noticeable on bass drivers, as the movement of air from one is cancelled by movement in the opposite direction from the driver in the other cabinet, resulting in a distinct loss of bass.
Fairly easy to check out, (assuming you have push-on connectors on the drive units).