1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Where we are now: The site is back up and running! The character set encoding issue has been fixed so old posts should now look ok. I am currently working on themes/skins etc and I will be deleting the temporary green skin very soon as it has many issues. I will do a very quick variation on the stock blue skin first just to get a light-grey background and san-serif font, and I will set this as default. Later this week I will hopefully add a professional third-party skin in pfm colours (life is way too short to do this crap myself, and I've found one I really like than needs next to no tweaking). We are getting there slowly...
    Dismiss Notice
  3. May I please request people check and update their email address if it is out if date. I ask as I’m getting countless bounce errors as the server fails to send notifications through etc. I’ll eventually figure out how to send these to a black hole somewhere, but it makes sense to address it at source as quite a few folk are obviously not getting the thread and conversations notifications they have set in their preferences.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Things you need to know about the new ‘Conversations’ PM system:

    a) DO NOT REPLY TO THE NOTIFICATION EMAIL! I get them, not the intended recipient. I get a lot of them and I do not want them! It is just a notification, log into the site and reply from there.

    b) To delete old conversations use the ‘Leave conversation’ option. This is just delete by another name.
    Dismiss Notice

TDL TRL2

Discussion in 'classic' started by gregor, Dec 15, 2007.

  1. gregor

    gregor pfm Member

    the foam is perished at the bottom of the base,anyone know if i can use any old foam or is it a special type.
     
  2. DSJR

    DSJR Between us and them

    Surely you can get some open style foam and cut it to shape, as I suspect it was as much a decorative thing. Ask Wilmslow Audio.

    I loved the RTL2 in its Mk1 form. It's easily tweaked too (better tweeter cap and slightly higher resistor to balance it). The Mk2 version was ruined 'cos it was balanced like the AE109 with a big step down on the tweeter to match the CD63 KI Sig CD and PM66 KI Sig amp (it can be corrected though).

    Hope you can find what you need.
     
  3. gregor

    gregor pfm Member

    yes i was thinking that myself ,just wanted to make sure.thanks for replying.i am intringued re tweaking,i was thinking of upgrading to morel or peerless tweeters but i wouldn't know if i have mk 1's or 2's.i do like these speakers though and my 8000a really makes them sing.what value resistor would i use if i needed to.many thank's,gregor.
     
  4. DSJR

    DSJR Between us and them

    They're good as they are and don't require fancy tweeters or anything IMO. You'll have to re-veneer the box etc to warrant it.

    The electrolytic tweeter cap (4.7uF I think) can be changed for a Polypropylene one which will increase the output further and the resistor (1.5 Ohm?) can be increased by half an Ohm - no more - to correct it. The designer suggested changing the capacitor value to 3.3 I think, but I didn't like the way the sound changed - the treble became sssspiteful...

    These make wonderful, cheap floor standing speakers (well under a ton per pair) and we used Flatling speaker cable as well as the ubiquitous QED 79 strand variants (not silver anniversary please).
     
  5. mikesnowdon

    mikesnowdon resU deretsigeR

    I too have a pair of RTL2's and Ive modded them a little.

    I changed the internal wiring to QED Silver anniversary. (more detail and Bass weight) Then I took out the midbass drivers and filled the cavity behind the flange with butak. (Bass tightended up a little, mid got a tad cleaner) I then fitted Morel MDT 30s tweeters. (Loveley treble, lots of detail, ambience. Better imaging) The problem is that my system is a little bright so the combination of the Silver wire and Morels is a bit to much. I also lined ther top part of the enclosure with 'Deadsheet' (Bitumin+foam)

    I plan to tone it down a little with some pure copper wire and upgrade the Tweeter Caps (Hovland Musicaps). Im also going to change the resistor to attenuate the tregble a little. Finally I plan to re-cover them with '1/8"Riga Borch Ply' to strenghten the cabinet and improve aesthetics.

    One further experiment will be to cover the frame legs of the Midbass with Bitumin.
     
  6. DSJR

    DSJR Between us and them

    Hey, these were only cheap speakers so don't go too far with them....

    These comments refer to the MARK 1 VERSION.........

    I apologise for HATING QED Silver Anniversary with a passion. Even the right way round it sapped life and dynamic range and what was left is a tinny "HiFi" quality which is not pleasant. It sold by the thousands of drums to AV orientated shops who never really listened (same for a few audio shops too, who sild it 'cos What HiFi liked it)...

    Get some reasonable copper cable, not too heavy a gauge and just get a polyprop cap for the tweeter - no need for a truly expensive one here as it'll almost certainly be a waste of money.

    With the original VIFA tweeter, I added half an ohm or more to make up for the increased signal coming through an upgraded cap. I'd leave the cap value the same, as when the designer suggested reducing the value slightly to remove a slight bump at 2-3 KHz the top seemed to detach itself and wasn't so pleasant.

    Adding a proper veneer to the cabs would definitely improve the rather shabby bubble vinyl finish of the original.

    Finally, look out for some Studio 1 M's, as these take the RTL2 idea to a different level - in todays market, I'd suggest the Spendor S5e or better, S6e as a suitable upgrade (with Chord Rumour or Odyssey spealer cable).
     
  7. mikesnowdon

    mikesnowdon resU deretsigeR

    I dont have the original cheap Vifa units. I have Morel's that cost nearly £100 a pair so Im certain they deserve better caps. I think Its justifiable to go for something like Hovlands for these Tweeters, we'll see. And Im sure they woulkd benefit, as would the overall sound.

    I was thinking about upgrading the coils. Nothing ott, just some air cored, baked type units.
     
  8. DSJR

    DSJR Between us and them

    I'm not criticising your tweeter choice in the slightest and of course the cheap electrolytic should be binned - even the original Vifas deserve better.. I was just advising caution regarding a speaker that cost £300 pr fifteen years ago and goes for £50 today...

    The thing is, the bass/mid unit seems well behaved in that box and the designer was an expert at driver/crossover design. Shame the mark 2 versions, which had better finished cabinets, were voiced with the tweeter set 5db too low to match the then popular AE109's, which were used with screaming "KI Signature" style budget CD players and amps.

    Good luck with your upgrades.
     
  9. mikesnowdon

    mikesnowdon resU deretsigeR

    I get yuor point about it being a cheap speaker.

    I'm just so happy with the results so far that top notch caps are warranted, IMHO. As it is the speakers sound so good, I'm quite suprised to be honest.

    I found them on eBay as 'faulty' and paid £5.50! (loose badge on one grille causing a rattle!) All in all they have cost me about £100ish incuding the Tweeters. I think most would be quite impressed with the sound as-is, but with a few nice xover components and a stiffened cab (im covering them with 1/8" birc ply) I'll have a really nice speaker in both accoustics and aesthetics. I'm not gpoing to throw £100's at them but theyre worth a decent crossover. I'll post some pics here when its done.
     
  10. mikesnowdon

    mikesnowdon resU deretsigeR

    Ordered some Janjzen Cross Caps today. I have some dimple foam also to experiment with.

    Can anyone advise which resistors are best?
     
  11. smegger68

    smegger68 Mango Enthusiast

    I had RTL3's for around 11 years; Vastly underrated basic design but deserving of better tweeters without a doubt. I fitted Audax units to mine with great results. BTW you can tell the mk1 from the mk2 easily - the mk2's have a bolt on plinth and arch topped reflex ports. the mk1's have no plinth and the ports are square.
     
  12. DSJR

    DSJR Between us and them

    There's something you can do to RTL3 mk1's to correct the mid dip and sort out the cruel impedance. There's a resistor across the bass/mid drivers in the crossover and I can't for the life of me remember what to do with it, either change the value or remove it... if it's 15 Ohms, change it to 25 Ohms or something similar, my brain's gone - sorry!...

    ...We had a problem with an Audiolab 8000P getting hot and bothered and it was this resistor pulling the mid down along with the impedance that was causing the problem - where's Clive Gibson (the designer) when you need him??????
     
  13. mikesnowdon

    mikesnowdon resU deretsigeR

    Hi everyone.

    I took a look at the tweeter section on the RTL2 crossover.

    Resistor is 1.5ohm 5W

    Cap is 6uF Electrolytic.

    I've ordered new Caps as mentioned above:
    http://www.audio-components.co.uk/store/SubSubCategoryList.asp?SubSubCategoryID=105

    2 x 5.6uF + 2 x 0.39uF Jantzen Crosscaps. The Cross Caps are'nt available in 6 uF so this was the closest match I could find. Can anyone tell me if this is ok, should I just piggy back the main cap or just leave out the 0.39 u
    F?

    I also ordered new resistors as advised above. Rather than going up by 0.5 I went for 1.8 ohm which is a tad higher. Will see how it sounds after experimenting with copper wiring.

    I was tempted to go for these resistors, on the promise of a 'tube like' sound:http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/kiwame.html

    Wasnt sure if the wattage was suitable for a crossover network. Can anyone advise here?

    At a later date may go for these: http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/mills.html

    Along with new coils. Imho, these speakers deserve a decent crossover, even with the standard Vifa HF. Looking around I think the jentzen caps are best in the 'value for money' stakes. jantzen also do some rather good Coils so rebuilding the network for this speaker should be do-able for ca. £50-60?

    This will require a new board so hardwiring over a a peice of 5mm MDF would be a good option.

    A new network would certainly bring a big difference to this speaker. As would aditional cabinet damping/bracing. The basic design is worthy of it IMOH.
     
  14. mikesnowdon

    mikesnowdon resU deretsigeR

    Hi everyone.

    I took a look at the tweeter section on the RTL2 crossover.

    Resistor is 1.5ohm 5W

    Cap is 6uF Electrolytic.

    I've ordered new Caps as mentioned above:
    http://www.audio-components.co.uk/store/SubSubCategoryList.asp?SubSubCategoryID=105

    2 x 5.6uF + 2 x 0.39uF Jantzen Crosscaps. The Cross Caps are'nt available in 6 uF so this was the closest match I could find. Can anyone tell me if this is ok, should I just piggy back the main cap or just leave out the 0.39 u
    F?

    I also ordered new resistors as advised above. Rather than going up by '0.5' I went for '1.8 ohm' which is a tad higher than the original.

    I was tempted to go for these resistors, on the promise of a 'tube like' sound:http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/kiwame.html

    Wasnt sure if the wattage was suitable for a crossover network. Can anyone advise here?

    At a later date may go for these if the above are not suitable: http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/mills.html

    Imho, these speakers deserve a decent crossover, even with the standard Vifa HF. Looking around I think the jentzen caps are best in the 'value for money' stakes. jantzen also do some rather good Coils so rebuilding the networks for this speaker should be do-able for ca. £50-60?

    This will require a new board so hardwiring over a a peice of 5mm MDF would be a good option.

    A new network would certainly bring a big difference to this speaker. As would aditional cabinet damping/bracing. The basic design is worthy of it IMOH.
     
  15. mikesnowdon

    mikesnowdon resU deretsigeR

  16. mikesnowdon

    mikesnowdon resU deretsigeR

    The other speaker is done now. I got lucky, the sound is much better now.

    Initial listening is very promising. On the track 'Take a breath' (from David Gilmours 'On an island' album) the Hi-Hat and Symbols were still clearly audible during the guitar solo, despite Gilmours screaming Stratocaster. During this solo the other instruments are much better defined where before they were drowned out almost completely! The clarity is much better, percussion and vocals sound more natural. Thers less of a 'shhhh' sound to the treble. And the added bonus is, the effect of better treble means the midrange and upper bass are better defined also.

    £15 well spent!

    http://www.23hq.com/2007snowdon/album/3106964

    Mike
     
  17. 337alant

    337alant Negatively Biased

    I improved the sound of my Wilmslow audio home studio monitors by getting rid of the PCB altogether.
    I used a piece of MDF instead and hard wired all of the components together I used a copper panel pin as posts on each connection.
    After this photograph I also wrapped each component individually in deflex polymer and laid it in the bottom of my speaker on top of a deflex panel. It took away another layer of colouration, better focus.
    http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh290/337alant/audio017.jpg
     
  18. mikesnowdon

    mikesnowdon resU deretsigeR

    Second speaker done.

    Good results. Sound is much smoother with more clarity. Theres a bit more detail and the dynamics have improved. I could go on but ill simply say: They sound much better!

    Reccomend to anyone with RTL2's to do this mod, even if you have the standard Tweeters. Its easy, cheap and bring big gains. Good value mod I say.
    Next I want to get them measured properly so I can see whats happening regards frequency response and phase. I like the sound and theres definately improvements. However, with the diferent Tweeter th only way to acheive 'optimum' results is with a new crossover. The likleyhood is that the Bass sectiuon can stay as-is, allbeit with better components. The treble section may only need minor alterations.

    I fitted the Morel tweeter as Wilmslow audio reccomended it. They must have checked it for compatibility with the RTL crossover but looking at the manufacturers response plots for each tweeter there is clearly quite a difference. The original tweeter is a Vifa D20TD-05, quite a different beast to the Morel MDT30s. Anyway, to my ears it seems like ive been quite lucky in my estimation.

    By the way, the extra damping material makes a big difference too. Dead sheet from Wilmslow audio and a layer of dimple foam down the back panel and top, plus the original wadding placed as follows: 1 sheet folded and placed in the top of the cabinet. " sheets rolled and placed lenthways, on on top of the other, down the front section -NOT THE TL VENT. 1 sheet folded and placed on the back panel - DONT BLOCK THE TL VENT. The final sheet plced loosely directly behind the midbass driver. You should have a couple of peices left over but this is fine. See pics here if your interested: http://www.23hq.com/2007snowdon/album/3106964

    Feel fre to ask questions/comment on the above.

    Cheers,Mike.
     
  19. mikesnowdon

    mikesnowdon resU deretsigeR

    Second speaker done.

    Good results. Sound is much smoother with more clarity. Theres a bit more detail and the dynamics have improved. I could go on but ill simply say: They sound much better!

    Reccomend to anyone with RTL2's to do this mod, even if you have the standard Tweeters. Its easy, cheap and bring big gains. Good value mod I say.

    Next I want to get them measured properly so I can see whats happening regards frequency response and phase. I like the sound and theres definately improvements. However, with the diferent Tweeter the only way to acheive 'optimum' results is with a new crossover. The likleyhood is that the Bass sectiuon can stay as-is, allbeit with better components. The treble section may only need minor alterations.

    I fitted the Morel tweeter as Wilmslow audio reccomended it. They must have checked it for compatibility with the RTL crossover but looking at the manufacturers response plots for each tweeter there is clearly quite a difference. The original tweeter is a Vifa D20TD-05, quite a different beast to the Morel MDT30s. Anyway, to my ears it seems like ive been quite lucky in my estimation.

    By the way, the extra damping material makes a big difference too. 'Deadsheet' from Wilmslow audio and a layer of dimple foam down the back panel and top, plus the original wadding placed as follows: 1 sheet folded and placed in the top of the cabinet. 2 sheets loosely rolled and placed lenthways, on on top of the other, down the front section below the midbass -NOT THE TL VENT. 1 sheet folded and placed on the back panel - DONT BLOCK THE TL VENT. The final sheet placed loosely, directly behind the midbass driver. You should have a couple of peices left over but this is fine. See pics here if your interested: http://www.23hq.com/2007snowdon/album/3106964

    Feel fre to ask questions/comment on the above.

    Cheers,Mike.
     
  20. 337alant

    337alant Negatively Biased

    Mike
    Nice work.
    I notice that the base mids are just secured with screws, where the screw hole is the MDF, it erupts up giving an uneven surface, you can get a much beter fit using "T bolts", just drill a 6mm hole right through and buy some 4 or 6mm T bolts from most good hardware store and even in B&Q, simple to fit but a solid fixing, I use 6mm allen bolts with them.
     

Share This Page