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TDL TRL2

Cheers. I was also thinking it might be a polarity issue. I look forward to seeing your labelled photos, it will be a great help.

Can you shed any more light on the Cyrus style active crossover/amp hybrid?? Sounds interesting.
 
Below are links to the crossover pics ... ...

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g233/handygrandad/crossover-1.gif
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g233/handygrandad/crossover-2.gif

Also some early pics of the Cyrus hybrid ... This is an active crossover and Helder amp built into a case with dimensions that match Cyrus shoe box units

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g233/handygrandad/Hybrid-1.gif
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g233/handygrandad/Hybrid-2.gif
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g233/handygrandad/Hybrid-3.gif
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g233/handygrandad/Hybrid-4.gif

The idea is that the signal from my Cyrus pre-amp is fed to the phono pair on the back panel. The high frequencies from the crossover are amplified by the Helder amp and fed back to the speaker sockets on the back panel that in turn will connect to the left and right Tweeters.

The low frequencies from the crossover are fed to the other pair of phono sockets. These provide a signal to a seperate Cyrus Power amp that powers the left and right woofers.

The high and low frequency signal levels are balanced using the trimpots on the active crossover board.

Just at the moment, I'm having a problem which I think is related to my choice of power supply ... It seems to be generating a lot of noise on the active crossover board ... ... ... will provide a bit more detail, when I've sorted the problem.
 
Thanks for the XO pics, and great work on those hybrid amp/active XO's! They look fantastic. Im sure the bass issues you had before will be better now using the Cyrus amps on the woofers, and the Rod Elliot P09 active modules should perform better than the other active crossover you were using before. Well done on the build. Great cases :)
 
Can anyone confirm what the original Vifa tweeter as in the Mk1 RTL2? I binned mine ages ago so I cant be sure. I want to compare specs between them and the Morel MDT30s but Im not sure the data I posted further up is correct.

Ive got 'em down as Vifa D20TD-05-06 but I need to verify this.

Anyone out there who can check this out?
 
Well I cant do what I wanted to do :(

I hoped I could simulate the FR of the original Vifa and the Morel, on the original stock crossover so I could compare the results.

The raw FR of each driver is quite similar down to 2KHz where the Vifa rolls off steeply and the Morel much less. The Morel extends down way past the Vifa. This indicates that we may be getting more output SPL below 2KHz even with the standard RTL2 crossover in place*. So we need to tweak the crossover to pull down that sub 2Khz slope, which its not originally designed to do.

*Anyone else finding the lower treble/upper mid a bit dominant and the tweeter sounding a bit stressed sometimes with some recordings? I am.

However,

Ive been speaking to James and he tells me that the very different impeidance plots of the 2 drivers mean that the the Crossover function's quite differently between the 2 drivers. This is a phase issue as far as I understand. So simply tweaking the cap value to try and pull down that sub 2KHz slope on the Morel isnt as simple as it sounds.

Now the main thing that's stopping me from trying some simulation's is that I have no idea what value the inductor is on the high pass section of the filter. Its not labelled and I cant measure it. Otherwise I've not been able to find a nice simple beginners software for doing the simulations. Those that I have looked at are asking for driver paramaters that arent shown on the Vifa D20TD or Morel MDT30 datasheet (VAS, Qms, Qes, Qts...all missing) I presume these are only obtainable by measuring the drivers in-situ?

Theres a lot to learn when it comes to speaker and crossover design and I'll hopefully get there someday. In the meantime I have to settle this nagging question about modifed RTL2's: How much better can they sound with a crossover thats optimised for the Morel MDT30s? Im sure Im not the only one who'd like to know, right?

There is a company called audio-components.co.uk which isnt too far from me, but not as close as I'd hoped. They offer a loudspeaker measurement and crossover design service. I've spoken to the guy there sometime last year and he charges by the hour but at a reasonable rate. So I'm going to take the plunge and get my speakers checked out, and the XO modified accordingly. I'll share the info here.

In the meantime I'm going to try some tweaks. I currently have the series resistor replaced with a wire link. My gut feeling is that a small amount of resistance is needed, something like 0.5 - 1ohm, just to reduce the tweeter output a touch. Also, to pull down that sub 2KHz output Im going to try slightly less capacitance. 5.6uF I can try initially and if it sounds better I might go a little lower. But I'd be doing this by ear with no idea of how its effecting phase or anything so I wont go spending loads on new caps just yet.

Some food for thought :)
 
Just put the 2.2ohm Mills back in. Much warmer tonal balance which I prefer, but I think 2.2ohm is a bit too much as its puling down the treble quite hard causing a lack of treble detail and timbre. I'll try a couple of different resistor values I think, 1ohm and 1.5ohm. Once I'm happy with the relative balance between treble and midbass I'll try tweaking the cap value slightly.

By the way, I checked my wiring against Handygrandads pictures above and it was fine. The thing that was causing the slight drop in bass was some stuffing blocking the opening of the vent just behind the midbass. I've now readjusted the damping material so its more of less as it is in the images I posted a few pages up, minus the top layer of egg-crate foam.

Handygrandad,

How are you working out your crossover slopes for the active module?
 
Hey all. Just found something interesting on the net!

http://www.tdl-loudspeakers.co.uk/pdf/rtl_page2.pdf
(See the right panel with the measurements)

Mentions a peak around the crossover region* which I think someone eluded to much earlier in the thread suggesting a smaller cap on the tweeter to cure it. However, the in room response (with speaker close to rear wall) shows a much flatter response plot although the upper bass/lower mid region is a little recessed. Probably this could be improved by experimenting with different damping methods like re positioning the foam or varying the density. Maybe even different materials may have some effect.

Comments please?

*EDIT: Which could possibly be extenuated by the Morel tweeter upgrade as it goes much lower in its response than the original vifa did. Maybe a smaller cap is the answer?
 
Hi Mike,

I've just (re)discovered this thread. I've got a pair of TDL RTL2s modded with Morel tweeters that I'm using with active crossover (using a Behringer DCX2496). I'm sure I've still got the original vifa tweeters in the attic - I'll check when I get home tonight and let you know the model number.

S.
 
Right, I've been up into the attic and retrieved the tweeters. The paper label on them states that they are D20TD-05 rated at 06 ohm. The serial numbers for my RTL2s are 47683 if that's any use.

S.
 
i came across this thread while thinking about changing (upgrading?) my much loved old rtl2's. i bought them new many moons ago, but recent cd player and amp changes have left them sounding a bit...harassed. i now have a marantz cd6300 and marantz pm6300 setup which no longer seems to entirely suit these speakers. they now sound messy when i turn the volume up, especially with more rock type material. i was considering a pair of monitor audio bx5's but this thread has left me wondering...

does anyone have any thoughts on how an upgraded pair of rtl2's would compare with the much more modern bx5's?

also, if i were to go the route of upgrading the rtls, would the newer Morel CAT-308 be a suitable replacement for the one commonly mentioned here, the MOREL MDT30 s?

i realise this thread has been dormant for quite some time, but maybe someone could shed some light on this? any comments would be very gratefully received.
 
Regarding upgrading your RTL 2's - you would reap considerable benefit by adding additional bracing material and replacing the flimsy internal wiring . Just done this on my 3's and absolutely knocked out by the improvement in every area you can think of . Much more to be gained here than by changing the tweeters , I think. You should do this first before even thinking about ditching them.
Nicholas
 
thanks very much nws56. that is certainly something i could do myself. what cabling did you use?
 
Hello HairyHaggis, I used Naim NAC A5 since I'm already using it from the amps to the speakers, but I think that almost anything will be better than the very thin stuff TDL used . Maybe use some more of your existing cable - what is it ?
Hard to tell which gave the biggest improvement - the cables or the bracing -but I can't think of a better way to get such an upgrade without spending any money.
 
i'm not sure what the cables are tbh. i bought it at the same time as the speakers so lost in the mists of time. it 'might' be qed...

have you any idea how these speakers might compare to monitor audio bx5's? it may well be the case that over the years i have become unknowingly hooked on the transmission line sound and nothing else will do.

thanks again.
 
QED 79 strand should be hefty enough ,but Linn cable is reputedly even better . Fat and thick seems to be the requirement . Naim is both of these but very stiff and unwieldy , I only persevered with it due to amps' alledged preference for it .
I'm guessing that bx5's would not be as warm or have the depth of your 2's - but that is only a guess. I don't think of the TDL RTL 2's or 3's as being representative of transmission line speakers in general - the bass just isn't good eneough ! And if you look inside the cabinet you will see why - there IS no transmission line , it is just a long reflex port. No matter though , what you really need to answer is whether the bx5's sound better than yours before you start faffing with them . A trip to the shops then......
Nicholas
 
thanks very much nws56. i did as you suggested and rewired the internals. the result is pretty much as you stated. better soundstaging, presentation and much tighter bass. however...it now reveals all the nasty sibilance coming from the tweeter! so...onwards...

re auditioning, i can't find a shop within a hundred miles of me which sells either monitor audio floorstanders or the pmc range. however, the ipl self-builds look very interesting.
 
Glad you liked it HH . Now do you fancy the additional cabinet bracing ? PFM chap linnik posted on here some time ago how he did this to his Keilidhs - it 's quite straightforward and gives probably even more of an improvement than the rewiring.
Puzzled about the sibilance , maybe fault lies elsewhere ?
Funny you should mention the IPL diy stuff - I've been pondering this too ......
Nicholas
 
Thanks for this thread I have a pair of rtl tdl2's mk1's but they are tired I'm going to rebuild them from scratch.. i love them tragic tale for RTL but they did make fantastic speakers will be a huge classic one day hang on to them
 
I haven't been here since I did the mod almost a year ago. Once the internals and new drivers settled in it was amazing... In February I changed my amp from Rotel's RB870BX (100Watts RMS) to Rotel's RB1080 (200Watts) and the base went very tight and I found some new low notes in the bottom of the couch :). These little gems still put up a good fight against current models and shine. Well worth the effort.
 


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