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Rega RP1 motor vibration

Sorry Stan, I've no photos to share, however, I do have a couple of dodecahedron balls, from customers who couldn't help themselves from removing and replacing their spindles, that I could send to you upon receipt of a postage paid envelope.

To be honest, I was exaggerating with the boring through bit, but only slightly so if one were able to compress time. The rationale being that, with a none-captive single ball turntable bearing, there exists 4 bearing surfaces: 1) the flat end of the hardened steel spindle; 2) the top contact patch of the stationary equally hard ball; 3) the bottom contact patch of the ball; and 4) the bottom thrust plate (or pad) of the bearing well.

With Rega's hardened steel spindle, similar hardness ball, and sintered bronze bearing well, the 'softest' material is the bottom of the well. The softer bottom bearing surface of the well isn't a problem in practice, as once the ball has centered itself it will remain stationary as the spindle rotates about its axis on the top contact patch of the ball (aka the first point of least resistance); this will go on for years unless the ball is disturbed by lifting the spindle, clean/re-lube, etc., in which case, the same spindle contact patch mates with a new contact patch on the ball. This is easily observed when removing a Rega hub/bearing assembly for its recommended initial 10 year oil change (used to be 20 years) as the flat bottom end of the spindle will exhibit a perfectly centred small dimple, whereas, the bottom of the bearing well will generally exhibit little more than a dark dot of discolouration (assuming the bearing hasn't lost oil since new due to the spindle having being disturbed beyond a lift of 2cm for visual check, deck left upside down for more than 20 minutes, all out bearing removal, etc.).

Should enough time pass that a given ball bearing eventually wears a deep enough depression in the spindle end, it will effectively become a captive ball bearing, in which case it will rotate equally with the spindle and wear against the bottom of the bearing well (aka the new first point of least resistance). My point being (and presumably YNWOAN's above) is that the hardness mismatch between tool steel and ceramic will see the spindle end dimple enlarge much more rapidly. Should that enlargement eventually 'capture' the ball then the relatively much softer bearing well bottom has no chance.

Looking on the bright side, unless the bearing goes totally dry, none of us are likely to live long enough to hear the ball drop.:)

P.S. With captive ball bearings, or spherical spindle ends like that of Linn (and others before Linn, despite the patent grant), the bearing well typically has an equally hard polished thrust plate fitted.
 
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Here is a picture of the little known original Rega Planar (1), approx. 200 of which were made between Planet and Planar 2 back in 1974. Interestingly, the motor was positioned to the left of the turned alloy hub and platter, rather than at the back. Notice the platter having two concentric rubber rings acting as both platter damping and record support; typical Acos Lustre tonearm, and stick-on Rega badge. Lovely!

3158853_orig.jpeg


P.S. Credit to Steve Ansell of H-Fi Hangar and to Rega Planar owner/commenter Rhys Jones (Griff?) from Australia.

P.P.S. There exists a wee bit of irony in that pic; can anyone spot it?
 
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Kudos to Mr Darwin for such quick responses to this forum question!.
hope spikey w gets things sorted to his satisfaction :).
 
Well, the Planet employed rubber O-rings on the three round alloy record support outriggers, so not so ironic really.

The only hint I can offer that won't totally give the game away is that the ironic bit has to do with comparisons to the current Planar 1. The specific example original Planar pictured and the current RP1 have something in common; that something is essentially the same from an engineering perspective but different from a marketing one.
 
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Well, the Planet employed rubber O-rings on the three round alloy record support outriggers, so not so ironic really.

The only hint I can offer that won't totally give the game away is that the ironic bit has to do with comparisons to the current Planar 1. The specific example original Planar pictured and the current RP1 have something in common; that something is essentially the same from an engineering perspective but different from a marketing one.

Cartridge? AT91 / Rega Carbon?
 
Bingo! (sends lovely assistant off to fetch a set of 3 zircon encrusted PT hex wrenches for the lucky winner.)
 
Sorry Stan, I've no photos to share, however, I do have a couple of dodecahedron balls, from customers who couldn't help themselves from removing and replacing their spindles, that I could send to you upon receipt of a postage paid envelope.

To be honest, I was exaggerating with the boring through bit, but only slightly so if one were able to compress time. The rationale being that, with a none-captive single ball turntable bearing, there exists 4 bearing surfaces: 1) the flat end of the hardened steel spindle; 2) the top contact patch of the stationary equally hard ball; 3) the bottom contact patch of the ball; and 4) the bottom thrust plate (or pad) of the bearing well.

With Rega's hardened steel spindle, similar hardness ball, and sintered bronze bearing well, the 'softest' material is the bottom of the well. The softer bottom bearing surface of the well isn't a problem in practice, as once the ball has centered itself it will remain stationary as the spindle rotates about its axis on the top contact patch of the ball (aka the first point of least resistance); this will go on for years unless the ball is disturbed by lifting the spindle, clean/re-lube, etc., in which case, the same spindle contact patch mates with a new contact patch on the ball. This is easily observed when removing a Rega hub/bearing assembly for its recommended initial 10 year oil change (used to be 20 years) as the flat bottom end of the spindle will exhibit a perfectly centred small dimple, whereas, the bottom of the bearing well will generally exhibit little more than a dark dot of discolouration (assuming the bearing hasn't lost oil since new due to the spindle having being disturbed beyond a lift of 2cm for visual check, deck left upside down for more than 20 minutes, all out bearing removal, etc.).

Should enough time pass that a given ball bearing eventually wears a deep enough depression in the spindle end, it will effectively become a captive ball bearing, in which case it will rotate equally with the spindle and wear against the bottom of the bearing well (aka the new first point of least resistance). My point being (and presumably YNWOAN's above) is that the hardness mismatch between tool steel and ceramic will see the spindle end dimple enlarge much more rapidly. Should that enlargement eventually 'capture' the ball then the relatively much softer bearing well bottom has no chance

Looking on the bright side, unless the bearing goes totally dry, none of us are likely to live long enough to hear the ball drop.:)

P.S. With captive ball bearings, or spherical spindle ends like that of Linn (and others before Linn, despite the patent grant), the bearing well typically has an equally hard polished thrust plate fitted.

Great answer, thanks for the clarity.
Interesting observation about captive spindle balls as this is used in the 33rpmengineering Rega Subplatter & Bearing Kit. The maker has kindly replied to my query to him regarding wear rates with this answer: "In regard to your ball, it will not wear your spindle or brass sleeve anymore than the original so don't worry about that. The ball does not spin in the sleeve and just stays still as the shaft turns on top of it. The hardness of the ball does not effect the rate of wear."
So I imagine the ceramic ball in brass sleeve is likely to last far longer than me now and maybe even longer in the 33rpmenginerring assembly if I go with it but that is another story really.
Meanwhile I will look to fix the 'High Performance 24v Motor Upgrade' hum issue - maybe go back to suspending it on the originals rubber band!
 
Hmm.... you seem to have received a somewhat disengenuous answer to your query. It is true that the ball does not spin but the shaft does - which part does the spinning is irrelevant though. It’s also not entirely true that the hardness of the ball does not effect wear. With one surface being significantly harder than the other it means that all wear will occur on the softer surface. Uneven wear rates caused by super hard bearings is well documented.
 
Great answer, thanks for the clarity.
Interesting observation about captive spindle balls as this is used in the 33rpmengineering Rega Subplatter & Bearing Kit. The maker has kindly replied to my query to him regarding wear rates with this answer: "In regard to your ball, it will not wear your spindle or brass sleeve anymore than the original so don't worry about that. The ball does not spin in the sleeve and just stays still as the shaft turns on top of it. The hardness of the ball does not effect the rate of wear."

To which I would reply, asking the maker why he has seen fit to use a Delrin thrust plate at the bottom of his own make bearing sleeve for use with his captive ceramic ball spindle.

On a separate note, and without wishing to be critical of the maker's sub-platter assemblies, which look beautifully turned out btw, I think it disingenuous of him to demonstrate them from the perspective of how long they spin freely with no platter on top. That tells us nothing about the change in the mechanical closed loop brought about by switching to a super-hardness ball on plastic thrust pad; what we used to call an 'engineering solution negation'. Also, closed loop theory demands hard metal to metal, or ceramic to ceramic, at the critical minimal pivot point. Also his, 'no metal to metal contact' argument for using Delrin sleeves and pads is a red herring, as a properly lubed Rega spindle/bearing essentially runs on a thick film of gear oil, which in hydrology is known to be just as stiff as solid.

So I imagine the ceramic ball in brass sleeve is likely to last far longer than me now and maybe even longer in the 33rpmenginerring assembly if I go with it but that is another story really.

Yes, I suspect the ceramic ball to last until the earth gets sucked into a black hole as partial fuel for the next big bang in the infinite series of big bangs, especially so, if you go for the full-Monty captive ball on Delrin pad.:)
Unfortunately, with just the ceramic ball in, my OCD would have me pulling my Rega hub out and examining the spindle end with a magnifying glass, many times per year, until death do us part!

Meanwhile I will look to fix the 'High Performance 24v Motor Upgrade' hum issue - maybe go back to suspending it on the originals rubber band!
Thanks for the reminder of what this thread was originally about. I'll have a re-read of your earlier postings and possibly offer some more constructive help.
 
The makers ideas relating to sub-platters and flywheels are fatally flawed in my opinion.

However, so is the concept of a closed loop if a felt mat is used - as by Linn and Naim. In fact I would go as far as to say that the closed loop idea is a neat idea but impossible to achieve in a practical sense.
 
Fair enough. Perhaps 'approaching a closed loop as an ideal', particularly at the more critical mechanical junctures of what is intended to be a precise geographic measuring system, would better meet with sir's approval?

Mats, clamps with mats, clamps with no mats, vacuum platters, etc. are all attempted solutions to the problem of what I like to call 'kick back' from the surface being measured. IOW, the elasticity of the vinyl can't be eliminated, but the resonance resulting from it being traced can, in part, be better conducted into the system as efficiently as possible without the system prolonging the resonance in kind. Felt, in particular, having a very rapid decay, won't smear or amplify what the bits the other side of the generator sink away to mechanical ground as much as, say, certain polymer or metal surfaces placed between a given platter and disc might.

Without wishing to sound condescending, I am sure that you know as much or more than I on the subject.
 
Indeed, but I’m sure you have also heard the difference between differing felt mats; so whilst being one of the better record support surfaces, none are really colouration free.

On the whole I agree with your comments. However, whilst I did used to be an adherent of the closed loop concept I am now very much less so.....
 
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Perhaps I am mistaken, but aren't you among those whom have attempted to advance the closing of the loop via the design/production of an alternative LP12 sub-chassis?

If not then my apologies, otherwise what has led to your changing of your mind?
 


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