Environmental effects of EV`s

[gez]

in the UK there are about 300 car fires per day. As of June 2023, there were an average of 20 unintentional EV fires per month.

Time to stop with the scare stories.

As in cars spontaneously combusting? or due to arson etc? I find it impossible to believe that 300 cars spontaneously burst in to flames in the uk each day. That would be headline national news. So I'm extremely skeptical of that claim.

As I thought, more than a bit of exageration going on:

"Every year in the UK, over 100,000 cars which equates to nearly 300 a day go up in flames and around 100 people die as a result. Around 65% of these fires are started deliberately to cover criminal activity, to make a fraudulent insurance claim or as an act of vandalism. One in 12 reported stolen vehicles will be burnt out."

Vehicle Fires

Vehicle Fires Every year in the UK, over 100,000 cars which equates to nearly 300 a day go up in flames and around 100 people die as a result. Around 65% of these fires are started deliberately to cover criminal activity, to make

www.fireservice.co.uk

It goes on to say that the majority of the remaining 35% of fires are due to poor maintenance.

 

[stevec67]

As in cars spontaneously combusting? or due to arson etc? I find it impossible to believe that 300 cars spontaneously burst in to flames in the uk each day. That would be headline national news. So I'm extremely skeptical of that claim.

As I thought, more than a bit of exageration going on:

"Every year in the UK, over 100,000 cars which equates to nearly 300 a day go up in flames and around 100 people die as a result. Around 65% of these fires are started deliberately to cover criminal activity, to make a fraudulent insurance claim or as an act of vandalism. One in 12 reported stolen vehicles will be burnt out."

Vehicle Fires

Vehicle Fires Every year in the UK, over 100,000 cars which equates to nearly 300 a day go up in flames and around 100 people die as a result. Around 65% of these fires are started deliberately to cover criminal activity, to make

www.fireservice.co.uk

It goes on to say that the majority of the remaining 35% of fires are due to poor maintenance.

So the statement made earlier that
"so a quick bit of maths based on these and my figures above shows that there is a 0.26% chance of an ICE car fire per year and a 0.02% chance of an EV fire. So over a 10x lower chance of a fire if you own an EV."
is now revised to 0.08% chance of an ICE fire per year and 0.02% for an EV. So 4x less chance. Now yes, if lack of maintenence is a driver the generally older ICE fleet will suffer more as they are older, but we are still far from the implication that EVs are dramatically more prone to catching fire than ICE cars.

 

[gez]

So the statement made earlier that
"so a quick bit of maths based on these and my figures above shows that there is a 0.26% chance of an ICE car fire per year and a 0.02% chance of an EV fire. So over a 10x lower chance of a fire if you own an EV."
is now revised to 0.08% chance of an ICE fire per year and 0.02% for an EV. So 4x less chance. Now yes, if lack of maintenence is a driver the generally older ICE fleet will suffer more as they are older, but we are still far from the implication that EVs are dramatically more prone to catching fire than ICE cars.

Personally, I don't think that such statistics are of much use anyway. What's important is the reason for any fires that do occur.

I'd take a far dimmer view (and I would hope most others would too) of a new properly maintained vehicle being used as the manufacturer intended bursting into flames than 10x that many old vehicles that had been neglected by previous owners catching fire.

The latter is almost inevitable with anything that is poorly maintained, it's going to become unsafe eventually, so it's expected. The former is totally unacceptable under any circumstances no matter how infrequently it occurs.

NB: I'm making a general statement, not a comparision between ICE and EV. There have been ICE models in the past that have burst in to flame despite being essentially new and correctly maintained, and those were rightly highlighted by the motoring press. I'd expect no less to happen for EV's or Hydrogen fuel vehicles etc.

 

[stevec67]

. There have been ICE models in the past that have burst in to flame despite being essentially new and correctly maintained, and those were rightly highlighted by the motoring press. I'd expect no less to happen for EV's or Hydrogen fuel vehicles etc.

Quite. As would we all.

 

[GT]

As I said, "Anyone with more than half a brain". That's not the current cabinet, as any fule kno.

Which is exactly why I wrote to my MP, who in turn sent my letter to the Transport Minister about Hydrogen and other Bio fuel alternatives...

 

[GT]

Personally, I don't think that such statistics are of much use anyway. What's important is the reason for any fires that do occur.

I'd take a far dimmer view (and I would hope most others would too) of a new properly maintained vehicle being used as the manufacturer intended bursting into flames than 10x that many old vehicles that had been neglected by previous owners catching fire.

The latter is almost inevitable with anything that is poorly maintained, it's going to become unsafe eventually, so it's expected. The former is totally unacceptable under any circumstances no matter how infrequently it occurs.

NB: I'm making a general statement, not a comparision between ICE and EV. There have been ICE models in the past that have burst in to flame despite being essentially new and correctly maintained, and those were rightly highlighted by the motoring press. I'd expect no less to happen for EV's or Hydrogen fuel vehicles etc.

Trouble is there can be up to 7000 battery cells in an EV. You only need one that is slightly defective to cause a major problem, i.e. a fire, so the odds of a defective cell is quite high really. Anyway the teller will be the insurance companies and if/when they refuse to insure some EV's as these cells can be very easily damaged, by vibration, a impact and of course heat from high discharge current and high charging current.

 

[Puggie]

You fuse individual cells in the pack, use temp sensors to warn of problems and use safe chemistries for your batteries (not NCA pioneered by Tesla for instance). It’s all basic risk mitigation in your pack design, some manufacturers do better than others. I think 4 temp sensors for a whole pack is inadequate, depends if you have a daft acceleration mode. Overburdening one cell beyond its limits is not necessarily unsafe if the pack manages it properly. It’s not like one tiny error and the car bursts into flames.

 

[sean99]

Trouble is there can be up to 7000 battery cells in an EV. You only need one that is slightly defective to cause a major problem, i.e. a fire, so the odds of a defective cell is quite high really. Anyway the teller will be the insurance companies and if/when they refuse to insure some EV's as these cells can be very easily damaged, by vibration, a impact and of course heat from high discharge current and high charging current.

Insurance companies (so far) seem to be concluding that the greater difficulty of extinguishing an EV fire is more than offset by the much lower probability that an EV will catch fire in the first place.

Electric Vehicle Fires: A cause for concern? – Allied World Insurance

alliedworldinsurance.com

 

[Puggie]

The bigger issue for insuring EVs is the poor repair ability and parts sourcing as many new manufacturers have no proper dealer and repairs network. The battery bit is not the major concern.

 

[GT]

The bigger issue for insuring EVs is the poor repair ability and parts sourcing as many new manufacturers have no proper dealer and repairs network. The battery bit is not the major concern.

See one of my previous posts. Even a minor impact can damage one or more cells in the battery. Therefore insurance companies insist that a new battery is fitted. This can make the car uneconomical to repair and so the car is scrapped. The is also a major issue.

 

[Puggie]

See one of my previous posts. Even a minor impact can damage one or more cells in the battery. Therefore insurance companies insist that a new battery is fitted. This can make the car uneconomical to repair and so the car is scrapped. The is also a major issue.

There was a report of a Rivian pickup dinged on the rear quarter and the bodywork repair quote was more than a replacement battery pack would have been. This is because they are designed for cheap manufacture, not economic repair. This was written off by the insurer from being reversed into a rock at a few mph. Battery was untouched, the bodywork protected it.

Tesla wing mirror repair is approaching £10k as the parts take 4 weeks for delivery and the insurer has to supply a like for like hire for this period.

These repairs are scaring insurers, much more than battery pack replacements!

 

[GT]

There was a report of a Rivian pickup dinged on the rear quarter and the bodywork repair quote was more than a replacement battery pack would have been. This is because they are designed for cheap manufacture, not economic repair. This was written off by the insurer from being reversed into a rock at a few mph. Battery was untouched, the bodywork protected it.

Tesla wing mirror repair is approaching £10k as the parts take 4 weeks for delivery and the insurer has to supply a like for like hire for this period.

These repairs are scaring insurers, much more than battery pack replacements!

An excellent example of why not to buy a Tesla...

 

[stevec67]

Which is exactly why I wrote to my MP, who in turn sent my letter to the Transport Minister about Hydrogen and other Bio fuel alternatives...

You must think more highly of your MP than I do mine. Half a brain is about all he can scrape up, if he worked hard he might get his IQ to room temperature. Marginal seat though, so he should be leaving next year. If he doesn't, we are in for another 4 years of these clowns.

 

[GT]

You must think more highly of your MP than I do mine. Half a brain is about all he can scrape up, if he worked hard he might get his IQ to room temperature. Marginal seat though, so he should be leaving next year. If he doesn't, we are in for another 4 years of these clowns.

I do. My MP is very good. She was promoted to chief whip during the last reshuffle. I have written to her quite a few times and she has always replied and come up with the goods. Trouble is, and by the look of them and their representation on the politics programmes, the next lot will be even worse. At least the current lot have had some sort of education...

 

[Fatmarley]

You fuse individual cells in the pack, use temp sensors to warn of problems and use safe chemistries for your batteries (not NCA pioneered by Tesla for instance). It’s all basic risk mitigation in your pack design, some manufacturers do better than others. I think 4 temp sensors for a whole pack is inadequate, depends if you have a daft acceleration mode. Overburdening one cell beyond its limits is not necessarily unsafe if the pack manages it properly. It’s not like one tiny error and the car bursts into flames.

Recently, I've been researching diy 18650 battery packs for my electric go-kart build, and was going to say what you just said. There are pictures online showing the individually fused batteries in Teslas. It's just a bit of fuse wire that burns. The battery pack still works if a fuse blows, because it's only a single battery. They would also be very likely have some sort of battery management system (BMS).

 

[stevec67]

At least the current lot have had some sort of education

Really? You could have fooled me. What education? Unless your definition of "education" is " attended a public school " then I'd beg to differ.

 

[Rockmeister]

Attending public school is a good education. Privileged maybe. poor it is not.

 

[GT]

Attending public school is a good education. Privileged maybe. poor it is not.

Well in my book there is a better chance of a good education via a public school, than getting into Government via a trade union, with little or no qualifications...

 

[misterdog]

I don’t think misterdog is going to let facts get in the way of his argument!

Just been to my local hospital today, one built in the 1970's, the temperature in the Haematology clinic was 24.4 C. ( FACT) I wonder how many air source heat pumps will be required to maintain such temperature, and possibly it's own nuclear power plant to fuel them ?

After my consultant appointment I was sent for some blood tests, the phlebotomist had two windows open and and a fan running to keep herself cool ( it's December !). (FACT)

I had my usual 2/3 layers on and returned to my living room at 12.6 C. (FACT)

Who is doing more to save the planet, the dreamers at 'room temperature' or the realists ?

Heat the person not the space.

All facts gratefully received.

The world's population increased by 70 million last year, (FACT) how will they keep warm/cool, cook their food and power their work ?


While the UK (population 67 million)(FACT) tinkers with reducing red diesel use and promoting air source heat pumps. The rest of the world is going to utilise the cheapest local fuel available.

Rosneft says the Vostok Oil project will tap into an estimated six billion tonnes of oil reserves across two oilfields, producing 30 million tonnes of oil in 2024 and reaching 100 million tonnes annually by 2030.

The plans include the construction of 15 towns for 400,000 oil workers, a port, two airports, 800 kilometres of pipeline and 3,500 kilometres of electrical line.

Mega oil project in Russia's far north threatens Arctic indigenous communities

Rosneft is developing a massive oil project on the Taymyr peninsula with 15 towns, a port, two airports and 800km of pipeline

www.climatechangenews.com

So Putin can't wait for the Arctic icefields to melt, so that he can profit from more fossil fuel extraction. (FACT)
The west on the other hand aims to show Russia a lesson with green technology.

 

[stevec67]

Just been to my local hospital today, one built in the 1970's, the temperature in the Haematology clinic was 24.4 C. I wonder how many air source heat pumps will be required to maintain such temperature, and possibly it's own nuclear power plant to fuel them ?

After my consultant appointment I was sent for some blood tests, the phlebotomist had two windows open and and a fan running to keep herself cool.

I had my usual 2/3 layers on and returned to my living room at 12.6 C.

Who is doing more to save the planet, the dreamers at 'room temperature' or the realists ?

Heat the person not the space.

All facts gratefully received.

Want a fact? Warmer hospitals have a greater survival rate. That's why they are so hot. Source, my consultant pal.

As for 12C in a living space, are you serious? My kitchen is currently at 18.4, I find it acceptable in a sweater but visitors often complain. 12C? Even I would be in a coat. Xxx that.