Environmental effects of EV`s

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I wasn't really thinking of the young person angle, though you have a point. I know we have a few of the French jobbies over here, I know two people with a Citroen Ami, both of whom love them, and the younger one is in his late 40s but yes, I suppose a market for these at 16 would stimulate sales demand. But I'm more sorry that we don't have the tiny-but-imaginative Kei cars over here, because we don't have the rules to accommodate them so they're very niche. I've seen a few grey imports around, there used to be a Suzuki Cappuccino near us, but they've never been an official import. We need more of that sort of thing, plus the old bubble car concept could do with a revival. Long overdue.

 

[awkwardbydesign]

the old bubble car concept could do with a revival. Long overdue.

Preferably with reverse gear!

 

[GT]

Not rear impact, impact from front or side on rear occupants as I read it. NCAP don't sling a deformable block at the rear of a car as I understand it.

NCAP isn't the problem. Any impact no matter how small could damage the batteries. Insurance companies won't take the risk without changing the batteries. This in a lot of cases means the car is written off due to the cost of the battery replacement. And they call this a green solution!!! It's about the furthest from the truth it could be. Apart from this, the elephant in the room is the cost to upgrade the whole grid including the extra power stations to cope with the extra demand. This is going to take decades to do so the deadline will slip and slip and then Hydrogen and Bio fuels will end up being the biggest part of the solution...

 

[gingermrkettle]

Apart from this, the elephant in the room is the cost to upgrade the whole grid including the extra power stations to cope with the extra demand.

You know,the National Grid may well have been thinking about that already. If they say there isn't a problem which they do, I would be inclined to agree with them. And in any case, the relative thermal efficiencies of power stations and car engines mean that electrification will actually reduce the amount of energy needed unless you add in the inefficiencies of hydrogen production (more than for batteries).

And on boots, I want a car to survive well enough to protect my kids in the back if something drives in the back of me. Any car with crumple zone designed in for safety will result in higher rebuild costs but I think my family is worth that costs.

 

[GT]

You know,the National Grid may well have been thinking about that already. If they say there isn't a problem which they do, I would be inclined to agree with them. And in any case, the relative thermal efficiencies of power stations and car engines mean that electrification will actually reduce the amount of energy needed unless you add in the inefficiencies of hydrogen production (more than for batteries).

And on boots, I want a car to survive well enough to protect my kids in the back if something drives in the back of me. Any car with crumple zone designed in for safety will result in higher rebuild costs but I think my family is worth that costs.

Really, our local golf club wanted to install some chargers in their car park, only about 5 to 6 I seem to recall. There was not the copper in the ground to cope with the extra power needed. For country wide EV rollout, basically every road in the UK will have to be dug up and bigger cables installed. Can you see this being economically feasible? It would be a far bigger project than HS2 and they have just pulled the plug on that!

However the bigger problem to the environment is the new tech going into todays cars. But that is another story...

I accept this about a rear end shunt. I would be more worried about the fire that will ensue after the batteries are damaged and they are very easily damaged. The fire will be at least 1500C hotter than a conventional car fire (600C), so over 2000C, and unless you can get out of the car, it is unlikely anyone will survive. Have you seen what the US fire brigades are using to put out EV car fires, because the normal fire engine isn't enough? See below:

 

[gingermrkettle]

I am not sure that an old golf club premises is a good example of power distribution infrastructure, especially when it comes to domestic supplies. Most houses will have at least a 100A supply, a car charger will use 32A at most. If you boil a kettle while cooking your Sunday roast on an electric cooker you will be pulling more from the grid than when you charge your car overnight.

And again, do you not think that car manufacturers might well have crash safety design teams who look at this sort of thing?

Edit: actually, the draw of a car charger is less than this electric shower. Are we getting panics all over the country about personal hygiene blowing up power stations?

 

[Puggie]

A golf club should be doing solar and off grid storage for that sort of thing, to expect to tag it onto the copper supply is insanity.

Battery safety is rocking along nicely. Many fewer vehicle fires going forwards.

 

[gingermrkettle]

I suspect the electricity feed to a golf club will be of the same vintage as its societal attitudes.

 

[tuga]

A golf club should be doing solar and off grid storage for that sort of thing, to expect to tag it onto the copper supply is insanity.

Rewilding?

 

[NeilR]

Really, our local golf club wanted to install some chargers in their car park, only about 5 to 6 I seem to recall. There was not the copper in the ground to cope with the extra power needed. For country wide EV rollout, basically every road in the UK will have to be dug up and bigger cables installed. Can you see this being economically feasible? It would be a far bigger project than HS2 and they have just pulled the plug on that!

However the bigger problem to the environment is the new tech going into todays cars. But that is another story...

I accept this about a rear end shunt. I would be more worried about the fire that will ensue after the batteries are damaged and they are very easily damaged. The fire will be at least 1500C hotter than a conventional car fire (600C), so over 2000C, and unless you can get out of the car, it is unlikely anyone will survive. Have you seen what the US fire brigades are using to put out EV car fires, because the normal fire engine isn't enough? See below:

in the UK there are about 300 car fires per day. As of June 2023, there were an average of 20 unintentional EV fires per month.

Time to stop with the scare stories.

 

[awkwardbydesign]

in the UK there are about 300 car fires per day. As of June 2023, there were an average of 20 unintentional EV fires per month.

Time to stop with the scare stories.

What is that in percentages of cars?

 

[NeilR]

What is that in percentages of cars?

A quick bit of googling shows there are 41 million cars on the road in the UK, of those, 1.1 million are electric.

so a quick bit of maths based on these and my figures above shows that there is a 0.26% chance of an ICE car fire per year and a 0.02% chance of an EV fire. So over a 10x lower chance of a fire if you own an EV.

 

[martin clark]

^1

Have a rather large car park WIP at the moment.
The research, and lack of agreed official guidance ....is interesting*. As is contrast between the client's insurance advisor, vs Building Control (and implementation of the Building Safety Act from 1 Oct this year in UK) vs fire engineer as a result. We do have an agreed outcome. I can't say anymore for now; maybe in a year's time or thereabouts.

(* first edit I wrote 'illuminating', but - er, perhaps not the right adjective.)

 

[Richard Lines]

referencing Lord Bamford's company JCB, who has developed his own Hydrogen engines and was getting nowhere with the government despite being one of their largest funders

The problem is that hydrogen powered JCB's will only be a first world solution and for some time going forward.

Until such time as there is a massive surplus of (renewable) energy hydrogen makes no sense.

Regards

Richard

 

[Richard Lines]

So over a 10x lower chance of a fire if you own an EV.

The new BYD vehicles are coming out with the 'blade' batteries which are a whole lot less likely to go on fire when mechanically impacted or punctured.

Regards

Richard

 

[Richard Lines]

plus the old bubble car concept could do with a revival. Long overdue.

Check out the Microlino.........

Regards

Richard

 

[Seeker_UK]

Check out the Microlino.........

Regards

Richard

Which is basically a BMW Isetta 300.

 

[GT]

The problem is that hydrogen powered JCB's will only be a first world solution and for some time going forward.

Until such time as there is a massive surplus of (renewable) energy hydrogen makes no sense.

Regards

Richard

Hydrogen makes perfect sense especially to a company like JCB where their products can be used 24/7. Its no good if a large digger has to stop for 6 hours while it charges up, when a hydrogen recharge only takes minutes. Also for large commercial vehicles the batteries are just to big and heavy to make the vehicles of any use. The whole EV thing is just a money making scam. The life expectancy of an EV battery is about 8-10 years before it has to be replaced. When that time comes it becomes unecomimical to replace the battery, so the battery and the car has to be disposed of. What a waste. That isn't green. If the world is really serious about reducing greenhouse gases then China, India and the USA for starters have to get rid of their coal and gas fired power stations and move to greener power generation solutions. These countries are responsible for producing most of the worlds greenhouse gases.

For information the USA is way further down the hydrogen road for industrial vehicles than pretty much any other country. They have sites producing hydrogen at present.

 

[martin clark]

..meanwhile Heavy plant on construction sites in the UK is moving to EV power at a staggering rate; truly.

It solves so many other issues on such sites. 'Generators' for site power that are silent & emission-free, in urban areas ( scale to suit); avoidance of cost of fuel , is a massive one, now the 'red diesel' tax break has gone away forever; Theft of fuel bowsers; avoidance of spills & remediation of such on site; much lower cost-in-use. Battery packs that augment existing equipment by energy recovery (works brilliantly on things like cranes of any size, which already have electric winches - think, KERS for cranes) You can buy really, really large Plant in battery-powered versions for these reasons; just let them charge/ top-off in the ~16hrs off duty (or pack-swap).. Heck - Liebherr and a couple of others offer 600KW at the auger, battery EV Piling Rigs these days ...that is the hardest duty of all.

We've even got a handful of battery-EV 11m long, 3-axle max-sized garbage trucks on test on Bristol - so quiet in the early morning ... esp compared with the usu roaring hydrostatic diesel.

Handling hydrogen is a nightmare in comparison to zero benefit. Synthetic fuels will have a place - but it is fairly-limited (and not, by renewable generation to create it)

 

[misterdog]

We just need to use these things a bit more intelligently.

Like nuclear power waste products.

At the end of the day (sic) we will always need power stations, to back up the lack of power from renewables, and it seems like nuclear is the current option of choice.