Homelessness
- Thread starter windhoek
- Start date
windhoek
The Phoolosopher
You know, I was thinking all along that I've seen her somewhere before and now you've hit it right on the head - she's J-Lo!
windhoek
The Phoolosopher
I watched a video on Liveleak a while ago and only now have I remembered to mention it here as it's relevant to homelessness and how we can help. I can't find the video but the gist of it is that some dude in America rolls into a service station and when asked by a homeless guy for some spare change, he instead offers the guy $5 if he'll wash the wheels of his SUV - not the whole car, just the wheels. The homeless guy replies grumpily that he doesn't work for money or words to that effect and then wanders off while SUV guy begins to rant about why should he work for a living only to give his hard-earned cash away to some guy just because he asks for it and won't bother to earn any for himself.
Although there was no need for the guy to go off on a rant, it got me thinking that perhaps this is the way to go: offer homeless people goods or money for services rendered, assuming the homeless person in question is fit and healthy and so inclined. I'm not sure how this might work in reality, like what sort of jobs could I offer someone on foot in town, but I think there's something worthwhile in the idea all the same. What do you think?
Although there was no need for the guy to go off on a rant, it got me thinking that perhaps this is the way to go: offer homeless people goods or money for services rendered, assuming the homeless person in question is fit and healthy and so inclined. I'm not sure how this might work in reality, like what sort of jobs could I offer someone on foot in town, but I think there's something worthwhile in the idea all the same. What do you think?
The Chronicals
Disruptor
I actually posed a similar question when working for a charity, as I needed leaflets handed out. I was told, by those more 'PC' than myself that it would be abuse and unethical. I don't see it myself, so I guess thats where the problem is, those too left to understand reality and those too right to give a damn (as the poster above me showed).
gintonic
50 shades of grey pussy cats
it is totally unethical. Why should a homeless person "work" for you like this without the protections offered to any other employee via employment legislation.
Swamp Thing
Remainiac Terrorist
droodzilla
pfm Member
Matthew Hopkins also devoted his life to demonising the poor and the ignorant.
witchfinder_general
Active Member
Whilst you defend idlers and potion pushers. Give 'em all a dunk I say, and if they float.............
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
I watched a very interesting prog this evening on the telly. It showed how a city in Columbia has been turned around from a violent and hopeless mess due to poverty and gangsterism feeding off each other, to one of the most peaceful yet vibrant cities in SA. All this achieved by investing in state support and infrastructure for the poorest areas and providing transport ( by cable car,no less! ) to allow those in the poor slums to access work oportunities in the city centre.
Meanwhile, the bunch of utter tosspots running our country are busy doing exactly the reverse.
Meanwhile, the bunch of utter tosspots running our country are busy doing exactly the reverse.
witchfinder_general
Active Member
I tell you, welfarism is at the heart of this problem, forget a myriad social/psychological explanations, this isn't so much a drug problem as a benefits culture problem. These idlers hang around town centres all day, some stealing, some begging - pretending to be homeless. Having benefits as their main income which also covers their housing, then begging for spare change/food, sometimes with a dog for that 'Awwwwww' effect. They deserve only a fools sympathy.
windhoek
The Phoolosopher
If someone offered a homeless person a job as a labourer that didn't meet statutory health and safety legislation or minimum wage requirements, for example, I agree, it would be unethical. I'm not sure, however, that washing four wheels for $5 is similarly unethical as it charitably pays more than the going rate. It's jobs like this that I had in mind - jobs that give homeless people a chance to earn a quick, safe and easy buck - rather than jobs that the taxman ought to know about.
I'll admit, I'm struggling to come up with ways in which I personally could offer a homeless person the chance to earn a quick, safe and easy buck, but it's something I'd like to try out for sure next time I'm in town. Who knows, maybe I'll cycle into town and offer to pay a fiver to get my wheels washed? Mmmm
The Chronicals
Disruptor
Yes I agree, getting paid £2 an hour to do something is slave labour, its not paid labour. Its the balance of allowing someone to earn and not abusing the desperation to find/make money.
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
You could have the local authority buy an old building such as a closed school or hospital and offer them food and somewhere to shower and sleep in return for meaningful work. I'm sure it's been tried before.
windhoek
The Phoolosopher
You could have the local authority buy an old building such as a closed school or hospital and offer them food and somewhere to shower and sleep in return for meaningful work. I'm sure it's been tried before.
That's something else entirely to what I'm talking about and it would be uncharitable, philosophically speaking, to suggest it's the same thing. For the purpose of clarity, however, I'm talking about spontaneous brief one-to-one microtransactions that would see a homeless person earn a quick, safe and easy buck in exchange for services rendered as opposed to my simply handing over cash whenever asked. What you're referring to is tantamount to organised exploitation and I don't accept in any way that that's what I'm proposing.
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
My response was intended to be tongue in cheek but I think your idea runs the risk of being exploitative too. Even though you may be totally honourable and equitable in how you'd approach things, there are far too many unscrupulous people who would take it too far - do you remember 'Bumfights'?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumfights
windhoek
The Phoolosopher
Ah, I hadn't heard of bumfights before, but - no pun intended - I see what you mean
Seanm
pfm Member
Even a conventional work relationship is completely unbalanced. We still have some regulations in place to take the edge off but in essence the wage relation is unequal. Add charity in there and it’s a recipe for all sorts of social sadism – as seems to be the case in the video described by Windhoek: the attitude of the would-be benefactor is clearly "Who are you to spurn this generous offer of work? You who have nothing?" The idea of spontaneous micro-transactions, well... it's impossible to imagine it not being Uberised at some stage, and then you'll just have a digitised workhouse, where we all get to play at being Victorian tyrants when we have the spare moment.
I'm not having a go at Windhoek, by the way. When there are jobs that need to be done and people who need money it's obvious to look for ways to join the two things up. But the most direct way of doing things isn't always the best. I think we have to try to change things at the level of the state because that's where the problem is caused. At the moment, unemployment is built into the system and is used to keep wages and inflation down. In other words people are forced out of work and then pilloried for being idle, as if it were their fault. It's completely mad, and we develop a mad way of looking at work as a result: we see it at once as an obligation ("Why aren't you working! Welfarism has made us soft!") and as a privilege ("Why aren't you grateful for the chance to wash my wheels!")
Work - good work – ought to be a right, not a privilege to be doled out by private patrons or enforced by the state. We need to stop using unemployment as a weapon and stop thinking about work like Victorians. A job guarantee programme might just be able to accomplish this shift and the idea is now getting some mainstream attention. In the meantime just give people money if they need it.
I'm not having a go at Windhoek, by the way. When there are jobs that need to be done and people who need money it's obvious to look for ways to join the two things up. But the most direct way of doing things isn't always the best. I think we have to try to change things at the level of the state because that's where the problem is caused. At the moment, unemployment is built into the system and is used to keep wages and inflation down. In other words people are forced out of work and then pilloried for being idle, as if it were their fault. It's completely mad, and we develop a mad way of looking at work as a result: we see it at once as an obligation ("Why aren't you working! Welfarism has made us soft!") and as a privilege ("Why aren't you grateful for the chance to wash my wheels!")
Work - good work – ought to be a right, not a privilege to be doled out by private patrons or enforced by the state. We need to stop using unemployment as a weapon and stop thinking about work like Victorians. A job guarantee programme might just be able to accomplish this shift and the idea is now getting some mainstream attention. In the meantime just give people money if they need it.
droodzilla
pfm Member
The guy in the SUV sounds like a right charmer.
I'm sure you mean well but, if you really want to help a homeless person, just give them the money or buy them a sandwich.
Or, better still, vote for a government that gives a damn and will tackle the root causes of homelessness.
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
When I used to work in That London, one morning a bloke approached me as I was walking into Starbucks for my regular bucket of filter coffee. He told me up front he was a recovering heroin addict and homeless and, whilst he didn't want money, could I please buy him a drink (with lots of sugar). I was more than happy to do that - in my mind it offered a good compromise between helping but not wanting to fund his drug habit.
Sadly over the next few months I saw him occasionally, same clothes just getting dirtier. A shame given he was only 5 minutes walk from St Martins in the Fields and their shelter...
Sadly over the next few months I saw him occasionally, same clothes just getting dirtier. A shame given he was only 5 minutes walk from St Martins in the Fields and their shelter...