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Trump Part 11

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I think it's a very minor form of the kind of thinking that has brought the world to the dangerous place it is now.
 
droodzilla said:
The only reasonable justification for all the "whataboutery" directed at Mueller's investigation by progressives is the one max highlights in the passage he quoted: namely that it sucks the air out fighting all the other bad things Trump is doing.
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Drood, I agree that it sucks the air out of fighting the bad things Trump and the Republicans (sometimes supported by the Democrats) are doing, but I think it's also serving to unite the worst elements of the deep state i.e. the security services, many Neocons, the grotesque mainstream media etc with those who oppose Trump, which is what Caitlin was getting at here:

Caitlin said:
This behavior has helped manufacture support for internet censorship and continuing escalations in tensions with a nuclear superpower while sucking all oxygen out of the room for any progressive agendas as the entirety of what remains of America’s political left is drawn into collaboration with the neoconservative, neoliberal center against Trump.
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What should be happening IMO is a major overhaul of the Democratic Party. All the corporate, warmongering shills similarly wedded to the Neocon (read warmongering), neoliberal (read more inequality) ideologies as Clinton - who was so unappealing she couldn't even beat Trump - need to be ousted from the party so that a) the party once again appeals to the usual Democratic base who did not support Clinton in big enough numbers, thus hopefully being able to do well in the mid-terms and winning in 2020, and b) if and when they do win they actually try to bring about the change the people require, rather than just being Republican lite, and serving the ruling elites, again.
 
Tony L said:
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To be honest I think what you are doing is beyond daft and quite offensive. You will make zero impact as America is a huge country and you have a tiny bar, and more significantly no one will care as there are no doubt other bars. Far better to engage with the subject in an intelligent manner and attempt to change minds. I also run a small buisiness, this place, and I guarantee my impact will be exponentially more than anything you could achieve by annoying a couple of American tourists who are likely liberals anyway (the fundamentalist rednecks tend not to travel). I’ve met a lot of Americans in my time as I was an IT Manager for a couple of household-name multi-nationals and without exception they were decent articulate and intelligent people. blunt-force bigotry will get you nowhere.
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I’ll ask again Tony. What did you do to help the Anti Apartheid movement and how did/do you feel about the blanket ban on all associated with White South Africa?.

I understand that you feel what we are doing is pointless. Maybe. I don’t think so. I think we give a few of them a taste of their own medicine so that they learn the enotional response.

We will differ sure. That’s fine. Just let me know what tou thought of the world wide anti apartheid movement.
 
The other point I would make about the leftist view of Mueller's investigation is that by somehow re-imagining this as a problem for the democrats is to repeat the lesser of two evils mistake made in the election. And just as then anyone who doesn't see Trump as by many orders of magnitude the biggest problem here I think either has an axe to grind or is, frankly, an idiot. One should be careful not to argue the GOP's case for them.

The next step in the sequence is almost insultingly obvious. Trump is preparing to shut down Robert Mueller’s investigation of Russian intervention in the 2016 election.

The administration and its allied media organs, especially those owned by Rupert Murdoch, have spent months floating a series of rationales, of varying degrees of implausibility, for why a deeply respected Republican law-enforcement veteran is disqualified to lead the inquiry: He is friends with James Comey, who is biased because Trump fired him; Comey is biased because he pursued leads turned up in Christopher Steele’s investigation, which was financed by Democrats; Mueller has failed to investigate Hillary Clinton’s marginal-to-nonexistent role in a uranium sale.
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http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/the-mueller-investigation-is-in-mortal-danger.html
 
vuk said:
merlin.

that is truly horrible. you really should re-think the policy.
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I of course disagree. In life, when i’m pushed i push back. I’m not a fan of trying to reason with madmen. It’s always struck me as a waste of time.
 
merlin said:
I of course disagree. In life, when i’m pushed i push back. I’m not a fan of trying to reason with madmen. It’s always struck me as a waste of time.
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the american tourists are all madmen? i'm really not sure what exactly you think you are accomplishing -- that they take away the view that a rude brit has gone all crazy radical native? also, as someone pointed out, it is highly unlikely any of them are trump supporters or voters.
 
merlin said:
I’ll ask again Tony. What did you do to help the Anti Apartheid movement and how did/do you feel about the blanket ban on all associated with White South Africa?.
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IIRC I played a couple of benefit gigs, certainly attended a few, boycotted oranges (which was in hindsight a mistake), bought a few albums of African music and that’s about it really.
 
maxflinn said:
Drood, I agree that it sucks the air out of fighting the bad things Trump and the Republicans (sometimes supported by the Democrats) are doing, but I think it's also serving to unite the worst elements of the deep state i.e. the security services, many Neocons, the grotesque mainstream media etc with those who oppose Trump, which is what Caitlin was getting at here:



What should be happening IMO is a major overhaul of the Democratic Party. All the corporate, warmongering shills similarly wedded to the Neocon (read warmongering), neoliberal (read more inequality) ideologies as Clinton - who was so unappealing she couldn't even beat Trump - need to be ousted from the party so that a) the party once again appeals to the usual Democratic base who did not support Clinton in big enough numbers, thus hopefully being able to do well in the mid-terms and winning in 2020, and b) if and when they do win they actually try to bring about the change the people require, rather than just being Republican lite, and serving the ruling elites, again.
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Thanks max, this is helpful. I'm starting to understand your position, even though I disagree with much of it. I'll sleep on this and reply tomorrow.
 
But here's the thing about Russiagate - it's not so much can Trump be found guilty of collusion with Russia (an insanely difficult thing to prove) - what Meuller's investigation was always about, IMO was an investigation into the depth & level of corruption in Trump & his team - the Russia veneer is just the label needed to be able to conduct the corruption investigation.

I've no doubt that his investigation will reveal depths of corruption (which will be excused as stupidity, naivete, lack of political nous, etc - whereas in fact, this is the way they have learned how to play it in their past dealings/transactions/interactions in business to hide this corruption
 
richgilb said:
He's not that bad, merely accelerating the demise of the USA, apparently:

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/22/donald-trump-and-the-coming-fall-of-american-empire/
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Haven't read the full article yet but I believe Trump is doing us all a favour (not intentionally) & exposing some of the underbelly of US internal politics & the swamp (not that he is not a swamp dweller) - plus their cynical foreign policy. These were all given a sophisticated sheen by Obama et al so I guess it takes a 'deplorable' like Trump to ruin this sheen of respectability & expose some things for what they are

There still is a lot of hidden sh1t going on too, I'm sure
 
maxflinn said:
Vuk she's brilliant isn't she!

I recommend members to at least read this paragraph and especially the bit in bold which might finally, hopefully break through the iron curtain (pun intended) and demonstrate why perpetuating the Russiahoax is a bad idea (if you want to see change in the US):

I’d be delighted if we could all just let this Russiagate thing go and let the investigation run its course. But that isn’t what’s been happening, is it? The frenzied campaign to keep this hysterical narrative front and center of all Trump-related conversations at all times drives Russiagaters to dominate political discourse with each new “bombshell” update that never leads to anything remotely resembling proof of their pet conspiracy theory. This behavior has helped manufacture support for internet censorship and continuing escalations in tensions with a nuclear superpower while sucking all oxygen out of the room for any progressive agendas as the entirety of what remains of America’s political left is drawn into collaboration with the neoconservative, neoliberal center against Trump.
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Beware arguments packed with loaded words. Just how much and exactly what flavor of excitement is necessary to make a campaign 'frenzied' and 'hysterical?' Don't answer, no one knows, including the words is just mud-throwing.

Won't read your brilliant article. I judge it stupid stupid stupid. This is mud-throwing too, of course, but it's what the quote deserves.

And I protest your endless attempts at name control (Russiahoax). It a stupid propaganda technique, worthy of Trump ("Crooked Hillary'), or other propaganda masters. Out there. In that big country to the east somewhere....
 
Don, dat kool. I feel we're all headin' in da same direction now anyway. Veils are being lifted and the trooth will bring us all together :cool:
 
merlin said:
I of course disagree. In life, when i’m pushed i push back. I’m not a fan of trying to reason with madmen. It’s always struck me as a waste of time.
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Exactly what everyone always says about their hated enemies. They are madmen. No point in arguing with them. You know you've heard that from Israeli apologists, or anti-Islamists here.

You'll get around to pondering a final solution to the America problem soon enough. Good thing we've got so many nukes.
 
avole said:
The problem is that those people in your restaurant are more likely to be opposed to the actions of their government than in favor - remember the voting figures. I appreciate why feelings would be high, but discussion would seem the better option, otherwise you and your staff are just as bad as those you are ejecting.
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On a point of accuracy, Merlin does not and, as a foreign national, cannot own a bar, restaurant or any other property in Thailand.

His wife probably does and we know what high regard Merlin has for women...
 
On a further point of accuracy, merlin can own 49% of a business, the rest being owned by a thai national. It is also possible to fully own a condominium in Thailand. Anyway, I don’t recollect having said he did. He clearly does have a strong interest, given staff refer to him as regards restaurant policy towards clients.

I do, by the way, run a restaurant and my initial response over the travel ban was to consider barring American citizens because members of my family are directly affected by it. However, I didn’t for the reasons already stated.
 
vuk said:
the american tourists are all madmen? i'm really not sure what exactly you think you are accomplishing -- that they take away the view that a rude brit has gone all crazy radical native? also, as someone pointed out, it is highly unlikely any of them are trump supporters or voters.
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What are we acheiving? We are giving Americans a taste of just how it feels to be a Muslim visiting the USA Vuk. By doing that just fifty times, maybe those fifty get home and explain how they felt to 100 more who tell another 200.

Perhaps we can put a sign up that will “go viral” - ideas welcome.

Everyone can do a little. I will do what i can. As an aside, sadly i have not met and Anerican over here who has NOT been clearly discrimitory when confronted by a headscarf or veil.

There comes a point where benefit (as in benefit of the doubt) simply runs out - and universal credit has teething problems.
 
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