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Dutch & Dutch 8C - Where are they?

Keith, what can’t you understand. I don’t want or need digital room correction/DSP effects. It for me, ultimately sounds less natural and can simply destroy an already compromised recording.
 
Raj read something that explains how loudspeakers work, the Genelec guide I linked to it explains some of the issues with traditional speakers.
Or just compare a pair of Kiis/8Cs to your system in your own room, then the improvement in sound quality will be obvious.
Keith
 
Until recently you would've claimed only a level matched doubled blind comparison would be valid to reach such conclusions!

Purité Audio said:
Depends very much upon the components you are comparing, something like DACs are really straightforward just measure the output voltage of the two units , loudspeakers generally sound very different to each other, with those you have to decide which you prefer, although I suppose level matching through test tones and a microphone wouldn’t hurt.
Keith
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This is a further departure from your old 'double blind and level matched comparisons only' mantra.

Space is the Place said:
I do.
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So do I. Not sure one can use audio test signals w/out listening to them!

Purité Audio said:
Yes... if only I had of known the first rule of being an audio dealer!
Keith
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Isn't the first rule 'don't serve bullshit to potential customers'?
 
Keith, you're either being condescending or facetious, I cant get your tone. (maybe I need some DSP/filtering ;))
But I can assure you I know what a loudspeaker is and how they work, in a room, in a chamber and in a studio.
 
Well you will hear greater resolution than you have ever heard before, you will be able to separate bass into it’s various components you will have a completely full-range sound from 20Hz upwards, you will be able to place the speakers anywhere you choose, the 8Cs enjoy being close to the rear wall, and because of the inbuilt contour and EQ you will be able to tune the sound to your taste.
You may not enjoy that of course...
Keith
 
Cereal Killer said:
It is based on the same maths, its how a mic works. I don't have a multi channel PA and/or a sub. but thanks, interesting link.
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You made a statement that it doesn't occur at live music events-it does,regularly. Moreover unless you listen to purely simple crossed pair recordings then any comparisons with 'natural' are silly or do you listen to people singing from 2 inches away, do you listen to the cymbals in a jazz drum kit while hovering overhead or do you put your head in a bass drum or 2 inches from the snare? The idea DSP is somehow more unnatural given how most recordings are made is purist nonsense.
 
Purité Audio said:
Well you will hear greater resolution than you have ever heard before, you will be able to separate bass into it’s various components you will have a completely full-range sound from 20Hz upwards, you will be able to place the speakers anywhere you choose, the 8Cs enjoy being close to the rear wall, and because of the inbuilt contour and EQ you will be able to tune the sound to your taste.
You may not enjoy that of course...
Keith
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How do you qualify that?
 
It’s immediately obvious when you compare them in the same room against any traditional loudspeaker.
Less off-axis more direct sound = clearer reproduction, really straightforward.
Keith
 
cooky1257 said:
You made a statement that it doesn't occur at live music events-it does,regularly. Moreover unless you listen to purely simple crossed pair recordings then any comparisons with 'natural' are silly or do you listen to people singing from 2 inches away, do you listen to the cymbals in a jazz drum kit while hovering overhead or do you put your head in a bass drum or 2 inches from the snare? The idea DSP is somehow more unnatural given how most recordings are made is purist nonsense.
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So all live events are now fully DSP’d and room corrected with cardioid response curves!?

No I don’t listen from 2” away to anything, that’s a stupid statement.

Let’s try a new analogy. When sampling a sound from nature how’s that best done?
 
Purité Audio said:
It’s immediately obvious when you compare them in the same room against any traditional loudspeaker.
Less off-axis more direct sound = clearer reproduction, really straightforward.
Keith
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Well it is coming up to Christmas, maybe it’s fitting that you’ve discoved the holy grail.
 
Cereal Killer said:
So all live events are now fully DSP’d and room corrected with cardioid response curves!?

No I don’t listen from 2” away to anything, that’s a stupid statement.
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I've given you the link, pity you haven't read it but to save you the time, cardiod bass is now widely used in concert pa.
Glad you may see the futility in comparing hearing the person next to you' speaking' with the reality of how vocalists are recorded.
Talking bass, assuming no DI the recording will have been made in a 'space' and will have captured some of the ambient information, that recording will then be subject to the effects of the room it is reproduced in, now it could be argued any steps to remove those additional room effects are positive in the pursuit of the 'original' sound.

For the record, I think your Proac's are great near field monitors.
 
Purité Audio said:
Well you will hear greater resolution than you have ever heard before, you will be able to separate bass into it’s various components you will have a completely full-range sound from 20Hz upwards, you will be able to place the speakers anywhere you choose, the 8Cs enjoy being close to the rear wall, and because of the inbuilt contour and EQ you will be able to tune the sound to your taste.
You may not enjoy that of course...
Keith
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Maybe the Double Dutches are much better than the Kiis (I doubt it) but the above is not what I heard from the Kiis!

The Kiis had more pinpoint stereo placement than my own speakers (not something that bothers me much).
My speakers had at least as good resolution (since improved) but with significantly better bass. It was much easier to "separate bass into it’s various components" with my speakers and they sounded more natural when reproducing bass instruments.
The Kiis has super smooth treble - this might be lower distortion than my hiquphons, or it might be the slight blandness that switching amps sometimes portray. I think it's the latter.

Anyway, whatever. Your statement above is too sweeping a generalisation, as usual from you!

Context: the Kiis are very good!
 
Unfortunately I haven’t had the opportunity to compare your speakers to the 8Cs if you are ever in London bring them down.
Keith
 
That's not really the point. I have heard other speakers that can do bass better than Kiis, as well as equal/beat their resolution.
If you get chance, have a listen to Overkill Audio's BMR line arrays and sealed subs. Unfortunately I did not get to try my own music on this system, but even with unfamiliar music is was something special. The point of mentioning them is that one speaker was in a corner and the other next to a wide opening, both agianst the wall, and the sound was not compromised. Makes me wonder about all this cardioioiod sales pitch, all he had was a bit of gentle DSP correction to reduce the boundary effects.
 
Despite the way cardioid is being presented, most of the mid/top frequencies will act the same as an equivalent box speaker. We are talking about differences toward the bass end of the spectrum.

What's happening IMO is exaggeration about cardioid bass - not just what it does but even how new an idea it is - and then reaction which is also an exaggeration, and then we end up with a polarised argument where either it's the only way to do loudspeakers or the devil's work, which is a pity IMV. I've no reason to think the Kiis and D&Ds aren't generally great speakers. I liked the MEGs. The technology sounds like it might have potential to help. But the positives could get lost in the clamour, and despite realising this I think I've been put off a bit, though I shouldn't be.
cooky1257 said:
I've given you the link, pity you haven't read it but to save you the time, cardiod bass is now widely used in concert pa.
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For concerts, it's obviously excellent for less rearward bass noise pollution. The case from a concert SQ perspective is mixed - good for reducing feedback with on-stage equipment, not so good for maximising SPL of amp/subs. I'm sure you agree that some comments from your link make exactly these points. I think there's actually more about which to be positive indoors.

I agree it's an interesting topic.
 
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