dave thomas
pfm Member
jonnypsvinyl
where did you get your Universe from?
where did you get your Universe from?
ZYX cartridges
- Thread starter dave thomas
- Start date
doctorf
left footed right winger
Lyra use a microridge stylus on their Dorian & Delos cartridges.
I've not heard of any problems.
Simon
jonnypsvinyl
pfm Member
I was lucky enough to find a good secondhand one in the UK with minimal use. Audiogon is the place to look. The aforementioned distributor not from the UK is also really helpful and often seems to have used Universes available that have been back to ZYX. With care they can be found for less than £2k, which is a silly bargain given what they can do.
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
Graham, even a cursory glance of this and other forums should tell you that most users experience a worn cartridge tip before other modes of failure/replacement cause. I've had 3 carts retipped, i've never had one collapse, I can think of at least people I know well who would all be in the 5-10 retips to one other failure bracket.
Maybe the carts you sell just have poor suspension QC?
Maybe the carts you sell just have poor suspension QC?
I should have explained myself better. When I mentioned suspension failure I was not referring to a complete failure where a collapse happens and the cartridge body hits the record. I was referring to suspension alignment and natural sagging that occurs as the compliant damping material (normally rubber) degrades with use, or the suspension loses compliance due to heavy use or poor handing.
Speaking to several cartridge manufacturers over the years the first thing that can happen is dirt and debris lodge between the cantilever and the front pole piece, or even further inside the cartridge generator. This restricts the movement of the cantilever and produces distortion giving the impression the stylus is worn. In this case the cartridge only requires microscopic cleaning and removing of the dirt and debris. Another thing that can happen is that the cantilever can become bent or twisted due to rough use or accidental damage. Sometimes the cantilever can be straightened or realigned, sometimes it will need to be replaced or the cartridge completely rebuilt. The point I tried to make in my last post is that retipping does not address any wear in the rest of the cartridge which is why it is often better to get the whole cartridge rebuilt or replaced so that everything is known to be 100%.
A retip might get a cartridge working again but is that cartridge working 100% or like a new one? Cartridges wear from day one so a retip may give the impression that an improvement has been made but as to whether that cartridge is performing the same as a new one is very debatable. If the cartridge has to go back to the manufacturer anyway its a good idea to get them to rebuild or refurbish the whole thing.
My experience has been mostly with moving coil cartridges. It will be slightly different with moving magnet cartridges where the whole cantilever/stylus assembly can be simply replaced as a "pull out plug in" unit without the need to go back to the manufacturer.
Note: I have not found any cartridge brand to be any more fault prone than any other however one or two bespoke designs have been noticeably more fragile in certain areas of use.
Speaking to several cartridge manufacturers over the years the first thing that can happen is dirt and debris lodge between the cantilever and the front pole piece, or even further inside the cartridge generator. This restricts the movement of the cantilever and produces distortion giving the impression the stylus is worn. In this case the cartridge only requires microscopic cleaning and removing of the dirt and debris. Another thing that can happen is that the cantilever can become bent or twisted due to rough use or accidental damage. Sometimes the cantilever can be straightened or realigned, sometimes it will need to be replaced or the cartridge completely rebuilt. The point I tried to make in my last post is that retipping does not address any wear in the rest of the cartridge which is why it is often better to get the whole cartridge rebuilt or replaced so that everything is known to be 100%.
A retip might get a cartridge working again but is that cartridge working 100% or like a new one? Cartridges wear from day one so a retip may give the impression that an improvement has been made but as to whether that cartridge is performing the same as a new one is very debatable. If the cartridge has to go back to the manufacturer anyway its a good idea to get them to rebuild or refurbish the whole thing.
My experience has been mostly with moving coil cartridges. It will be slightly different with moving magnet cartridges where the whole cantilever/stylus assembly can be simply replaced as a "pull out plug in" unit without the need to go back to the manufacturer.
Note: I have not found any cartridge brand to be any more fault prone than any other however one or two bespoke designs have been noticeably more fragile in certain areas of use.
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
I have a mouth, I use it to blow debris off my cart, not further into it. It's most effective.
My car has 185,000 miles of the original rubber bushes and drives great, similarly I've owned Linn Troika's that have had a couple of re-tips and were 20+ years old. At the same time I had an original Koetsu Black that fell to bits after less than 1000 hours use. Some brands do have a rep for building everlasting carts and others don't.
Whenever I've had a cart back from Expert it has always been stripped and microscopically cleaned of debris and looked brand new. I tend to choose brands who I know build carts that will survive multiple re-tips over a number of years. Certainly the only way to get a brand new cart back is to have all the internals replaced, but I've always considered that given the 'micro' nature of the assembly involved and the limits of QC in such a process that simply chopping off the stylus is likely to return me more of the sound I want than receiving a totally rebuilt (effectively completely different ) cart back.
You's pays your money and takes your choice. I shall certainly be having my current Benz LP retipped when it reaches a suitable state of wear.
My car has 185,000 miles of the original rubber bushes and drives great, similarly I've owned Linn Troika's that have had a couple of re-tips and were 20+ years old. At the same time I had an original Koetsu Black that fell to bits after less than 1000 hours use. Some brands do have a rep for building everlasting carts and others don't.
Whenever I've had a cart back from Expert it has always been stripped and microscopically cleaned of debris and looked brand new. I tend to choose brands who I know build carts that will survive multiple re-tips over a number of years. Certainly the only way to get a brand new cart back is to have all the internals replaced, but I've always considered that given the 'micro' nature of the assembly involved and the limits of QC in such a process that simply chopping off the stylus is likely to return me more of the sound I want than receiving a totally rebuilt (effectively completely different ) cart back.
You's pays your money and takes your choice. I shall certainly be having my current Benz LP retipped when it reaches a suitable state of wear.
eguth
pfm Member
GT
With all due respect Expert Stylus repair cartridge styli and cantilevers - they do not design or make cartridges
That is not my understanding. I could be mistaken, but I believe that ESC do not repair styli; they replace worn or defective ones. They do not repair cantilevers; they replace them with new ones or modify existing ones as an upgrade. They do not design or make cartridges but this is not to the point. We are discussing whether or not the micro ridge stylus is prone to fracture.
Expert Stylus do not sell ZYX cartridges. They do (or did) sell some Benz models.
Mr. Hodgson was a consultant to Shure when they were fitting micro ridge stylii to their cartridges so he may be well qualified to state a thing or two about this stylus from a technical point of view.
I can understand why agents for ZYX are interested in promoting their virtues. Dealers and agents may not know about ZYX styli that have fractured before or after these were sent for retipping to aftermarket retippers.
RE: GTs comment:
. It is also very rare that cartridges need retipping .
I think this is, if not inadvertent, very misleading.
There is little unanimity about how many hours should be regarded as standard before a diamond stylus needs retipping. On the one extreme ZYX said 2000 hours. Dr. vdH says his stylus is good for 1000 hours. 1000 hours is accepted as the industry standard. At the other extreme, Wyndham Hodgson says retipping is needed after about 300 hours and has microscopic examination photos as proof of his contention.
Although there is little unanimity, so far as I am aware, no one except GT has stated that the need for cartridge retipping is rare. Allowing a cartridge to be used for 2000 hours or more is a recipe for record wear and loss of high frequency reproduction.
It is in the interests of cartridge manufacturers to promote the (supposed) longevity of their wares, as indeed it is in the interest of aftermarket retippers to promote the necessity for retipping after what many regard as unduly short periods.
With all due respect Expert Stylus repair cartridge styli and cantilevers - they do not design or make cartridges
That is not my understanding. I could be mistaken, but I believe that ESC do not repair styli; they replace worn or defective ones. They do not repair cantilevers; they replace them with new ones or modify existing ones as an upgrade. They do not design or make cartridges but this is not to the point. We are discussing whether or not the micro ridge stylus is prone to fracture.
Expert Stylus do not sell ZYX cartridges. They do (or did) sell some Benz models.
Mr. Hodgson was a consultant to Shure when they were fitting micro ridge stylii to their cartridges so he may be well qualified to state a thing or two about this stylus from a technical point of view.
I can understand why agents for ZYX are interested in promoting their virtues. Dealers and agents may not know about ZYX styli that have fractured before or after these were sent for retipping to aftermarket retippers.
RE: GTs comment:
. It is also very rare that cartridges need retipping .
I think this is, if not inadvertent, very misleading.
There is little unanimity about how many hours should be regarded as standard before a diamond stylus needs retipping. On the one extreme ZYX said 2000 hours. Dr. vdH says his stylus is good for 1000 hours. 1000 hours is accepted as the industry standard. At the other extreme, Wyndham Hodgson says retipping is needed after about 300 hours and has microscopic examination photos as proof of his contention.
Although there is little unanimity, so far as I am aware, no one except GT has stated that the need for cartridge retipping is rare. Allowing a cartridge to be used for 2000 hours or more is a recipe for record wear and loss of high frequency reproduction.
It is in the interests of cartridge manufacturers to promote the (supposed) longevity of their wares, as indeed it is in the interest of aftermarket retippers to promote the necessity for retipping after what many regard as unduly short periods.
paul auster
Banned
Top post . Just missing a conclusion .
Conclusion . Capitalism encourages people to obfuscate the truth to make a living. Alas you are left to obtain as much knowledge as possible and make your own mind up and pays your own money.
Conclusion . Capitalism encourages people to obfuscate the truth to make a living. Alas you are left to obtain as much knowledge as possible and make your own mind up and pays your own money.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Whereas the life of a stylus does depend upon its quality, profile, use, set-up of the cart. and condition of records, 1000 hours seems to have been the accepted absolute minimum for moving coils over a grand.
Lyras have a good longevity record, and Koetsus (by repute) seem to go on forever (well, almost.....) Under good playing conditions, I'd be surprised if 2000 hours wasn't an achievable minimum with today's quality moving coils.
I've yet to put more than 500 or so hours on any cart. I've had in over two plus decades, and I'm in awe of those who need a re-tip or whatever after, say 3 years. They must have rather singular lives.
When radio and records were the only sources, this could be understandable, but with 5 or more to choose from nowadays...........!
Lyras have a good longevity record, and Koetsus (by repute) seem to go on forever (well, almost.....) Under good playing conditions, I'd be surprised if 2000 hours wasn't an achievable minimum with today's quality moving coils.
I've yet to put more than 500 or so hours on any cart. I've had in over two plus decades, and I'm in awe of those who need a re-tip or whatever after, say 3 years. They must have rather singular lives.
When radio and records were the only sources, this could be understandable, but with 5 or more to choose from nowadays...........!
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
ESCO, replace styli, they both replace and repair damaged canti's (when economically viable ) and have been know to rewind coils in some instances with particularly expensive and no longer available carts. They manufacture and supply their own styli to a number of 3rd parties and were at one point the sole Benz repair facility in Europe when Benz were not staffed to repair their own carts.
They do IME somewhat underestimate the lifespan of a styli, but better safe than playing gouged vinyl.
They do IME somewhat underestimate the lifespan of a styli, but better safe than playing gouged vinyl.
Inevitably, individual experience is limited..we can only own so many cartridges. Given that, I would tend to agree with GT Audio that the performance of the suspension starts to drop off first. I've had several suspensions 'sag' but never had a worn stylus (as far as my eyes and ears can tell.)
I prefer to trade the cartridge in for a factory fresh one. But then I wouldn't have the nerve to run a car for 185,000 miles!
I prefer to trade the cartridge in for a factory fresh one. But then I wouldn't have the nerve to run a car for 185,000 miles!
Mike Reed
pfm Member
topoxforddoc
pfm Member
Dirt in the suspension/generator is a real cartridge killer. This causes more problems than a straight worn tip. The problem is that most people don’t realise this until they buy a wet RCM. I didn’t realise this until about 4-5 years ago, when I had to get my rather expensive Allaerts MC1B rebuilt. Jan Allaerts emailed me to say that the generator and suspension were just completely gummed up - hence the distortion when playing my LPs.
Now I wet clean (once) every LP that goes on my TT. Now I hardly ever get any dust on either my Allaerts or on my Decca. Deccas are complete dust magnets too.
Charlie
Now I wet clean (once) every LP that goes on my TT. Now I hardly ever get any dust on either my Allaerts or on my Decca. Deccas are complete dust magnets too.
Charlie
eguth
pfm Member
It seems regrettable to me that few people are worried about the damage caused to vinyl grooves and subsequent loss of high frequencies- not to mention increased background noise- that is caused by a worn diamond damaging the grooves.
Cartridges and styli are replaceable; vinyl is (increasingly) not- or not at reasonable cost- not to mention rare records.
I will cite a personal example on the question of whether a stylus and/or a suspension usually goes first.
I had my vdH MC1, purchased new, retipped a total of 17 (seventeen) times by Expert Stylus. On each occasion they examined the stylus, pronounced it badly worn (usually I had it retipped after 300 hours) and checked the suspension for sagging. (Expert refuse to retip when the suspension is not as it needs to be). I not only wet- clean my entire collection but also are careful about dust and have a state of the art air purifier in the listening room.
The vdH MC1 sounded as new after each retipping. At last, one day it sounded dreadful. Expert examined it and said that one coil was partially broken. The suspension was still allright. They carried out a full rebuild. It arrived back sounding like a different cartridge and not, as far, as I am concerned, as good as the original vdH MC1. I now use it only as a spare as, indeed, I only use my ZYX Airy 1000s as a spare.
I think so highly of my Dynavector XX2 (II) that I now own two of them. It is not the best cartridge I ever owned in every respect but, generally, is a dream and pleasure to use. I never get any listening fatigue from using it. I am certain that the higher in the range Dynavectors are substantially better and, although I have never heard one, I read that the ZYX Universe has rectified the deficiencies of the ZYX cartridges lower down their range.
If you use your cartridge for so many hours that the stylus is badly worn then, of course, it may well be that the state of the suspension will be the immediate cause of what you hear as deterioration. That should never be regarded as an excuse for using a cartridge beyond about 1000 hours if you care about the future of your vinyl.
Cartridges and styli are replaceable; vinyl is (increasingly) not- or not at reasonable cost- not to mention rare records.
I will cite a personal example on the question of whether a stylus and/or a suspension usually goes first.
I had my vdH MC1, purchased new, retipped a total of 17 (seventeen) times by Expert Stylus. On each occasion they examined the stylus, pronounced it badly worn (usually I had it retipped after 300 hours) and checked the suspension for sagging. (Expert refuse to retip when the suspension is not as it needs to be). I not only wet- clean my entire collection but also are careful about dust and have a state of the art air purifier in the listening room.
The vdH MC1 sounded as new after each retipping. At last, one day it sounded dreadful. Expert examined it and said that one coil was partially broken. The suspension was still allright. They carried out a full rebuild. It arrived back sounding like a different cartridge and not, as far, as I am concerned, as good as the original vdH MC1. I now use it only as a spare as, indeed, I only use my ZYX Airy 1000s as a spare.
I think so highly of my Dynavector XX2 (II) that I now own two of them. It is not the best cartridge I ever owned in every respect but, generally, is a dream and pleasure to use. I never get any listening fatigue from using it. I am certain that the higher in the range Dynavectors are substantially better and, although I have never heard one, I read that the ZYX Universe has rectified the deficiencies of the ZYX cartridges lower down their range.
If you use your cartridge for so many hours that the stylus is badly worn then, of course, it may well be that the state of the suspension will be the immediate cause of what you hear as deterioration. That should never be regarded as an excuse for using a cartridge beyond about 1000 hours if you care about the future of your vinyl.
badger748
Former bacon enthusiast
I'm sure that statements like this really should be quantified?
I read that there's a man in Kathmandu with two willies - but I have no evidence to prove this either.
eguth
pfm Member
If you want plenty of info tap out ZYX Universe on Google or go to Audiogon forums. The following is just one opinion I culled from a section of the 10 Audio June 2007 review. I am not endorsing it (or any other opinion for that matter). I am only relating what I read.
Besides that perfect midrange, the quality of all other frequencies is excellent, too. I noticed a small reticence in the upper bass which slightly reduces the perception of bass detail. And the upper frequencies have just a bit less of that amazing resolution that the midrange offers so effortlessly and completely. This character was also noted in my review of the Zyx Airy 3x, but it is present in the UNIverse to a far, far smaller degree. It is impossible to say with any certainty how any cartridge might sound on a different tonearm, but my ongoing and now permanent (insert wink here) use of the Tri-Planar VII suggests that the small deficiencies I observed in the UNIverse would be, at least, ameliorated with this tonearm. While the Tri-Planar does not seem to be better than the Conqueror in large scale or macro dynamics, it is superior in almost all other areas. A full review of the Tri-Planar VII is in progress
When I was in Katmandu I saw the man you refer to.
Besides that perfect midrange, the quality of all other frequencies is excellent, too. I noticed a small reticence in the upper bass which slightly reduces the perception of bass detail. And the upper frequencies have just a bit less of that amazing resolution that the midrange offers so effortlessly and completely. This character was also noted in my review of the Zyx Airy 3x, but it is present in the UNIverse to a far, far smaller degree. It is impossible to say with any certainty how any cartridge might sound on a different tonearm, but my ongoing and now permanent (insert wink here) use of the Tri-Planar VII suggests that the small deficiencies I observed in the UNIverse would be, at least, ameliorated with this tonearm. While the Tri-Planar does not seem to be better than the Conqueror in large scale or macro dynamics, it is superior in almost all other areas. A full review of the Tri-Planar VII is in progress
When I was in Katmandu I saw the man you refer to.