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Yiiiiiihaaa!!! The 20'000 UKP power cable is here!

wwelly said:
Here are some tips for aspiring cable non-believers:
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wwelly said:
1. Original Post subject must contain at least 1 exclamation mark...preferably more.
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It think $20000 demands the use of the exclamation, maybe a few!!!! (see that?)

wwelly said:
2. For power cable posts, A comparison to an ordinary kettle lead is desirable but not essential.
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In much the same way one might compare one spoon to another?

wwelly said:
3. Any cable disbelieving wannabees must race to respond to the original post as quckly as possible. Seconds is preferable, but any time within 5 minutes is deemed acceptable.
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Could it be a case of right place at the right time?

wwelly said:
4. Preferably, use no technical descriptions or words in your judgements. simple descriptions of lumped LCR parameters are permissible, but not essential.
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Oh, you mean the like the cable makers claims of nano this and chaos theory that or quantum the other?

wwelly said:
5. Use the phrase "After the hundreds of miles of cable from the power station, how can the last six feet possibly make any difference..." at least once in each thread.
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Oh the irony.

wwelly said:
6. Never...repeat, never...say that you believe that cables make a difference. Uttering such nonsense will obviously ensure you are shunned by your peers.
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Why would they? It is bollocks of the first water, but some believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden. Oh, hang on..

wwelly said:
7. Never buy anything other better than a 2 pound kettle lead for any items in your setup. We will find you if you do...
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And the lampooning will begin, and rightly so.

wwelly said:
7. A similar thread must appear again within a suitably short time, to ensure that the same non informative posts and comments can once again be trotted out.
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That is actually not a bad idea, the more threads revealing the utter hilarity of this stuff, and the total and complete lack of a single test, or one piece of scientific evidence, not once, not ever reveals the whole thing to be nothing but a sham. (At least to rational human beings who do not believe in tarot, healing crystals, ghosts and magic wires) :)

Oh, and you have two number '7' posts, is that some kind of superstition too?
 
aquapiranha said:
That is actually not a bad idea, the more threads revealing the utter hilarity of this stuff, and the total and complete lack of a single test, or one piece of scientific evidence, not once, not ever reveals the whole thing to be nothing but a sham. (At least to rational human beings who do not believe in tarot, healing crystals, ghosts and magic wires) :)

Oh, and you have two number '7' posts, is that some kind of superstition too?
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One problem is, although many cable makers do not provide scientific evidence neither, as a rule, do the naysayers. There are always the same generalisations in threads like these, like those I mentioned in my original post (e.g. "last six feet", "kettle lead references" etc.).

The second thing is, some people make these remarks even though they have not tried an alternative cable (NOT pointing fingers here, by the way, because I don't know anybody's background in great detail).

Don't get me wrong, I think 20 grand is an outrageous amount for a power cord or any audio cable, but I have had positive results in my system with power cables like the DIY Belden shielded cable recipes that have cropped up at various places around the net. The parts for these can be picked for very little money...though not as little as a normal kettlecord ;)
 
wwelly said:
One problem is, although many cable makers do not provide scientific evidence neither, as a rule, do the naysayers. There are always the same generalisations in threads like these, like those I mentioned in my original post (e.g. "last six feet", "kettle lead references" etc.).

The second thing is, some people make these remarks even though they have not tried an alternative cable (NOT pointing fingers here, by the way, because I don't know anybody's background in great detail).

Don't get me wrong, I think 20 grand is an outrageous amount for a power cord or any audio cable, but I have had positive results in my system with power cables like the DIY Belden shielded cable recipes that have cropped up at various places around the net. The parts for these can be picked for very little money...though not as little as a normal kettlecord ;)
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I see where you are coming from, but lets say you believe in UFO's and tell everyone so. Do you think it would be up to everyone else to prove they do not exist? Or more likely that the majority would expect you to come up with the evidence that they do?

This is the shift of onus that irks the non believers. Despite a couple of decades of this stuff, the people who make and sell the stuff and those who claim to hear differences have somehow managed to shift the onus of proof from themselves onto those who demand a little more rationality.

:)
 
Are you still on your consumer saviour crusade mission Steve?

Have you had some kind of Calling for this or is it all just a wind-up?

£20,000 for a mains lead that uses connectors made by another company is outrageous btw.
 
Hi Steve.

I do not, and have never considered myself a 'consumer saviour' whatever that is. If you want to spend your hard earned money on this stuff that is your business after all. However, I doubt the integrity of people who make money by selling products that have no proven use other than as ornaments.

I firmly believe that here are people who are more suggestible (is that even a word?) than others though. Let's look for example at yourself. you have..

A special mains installation for the Hi-Fi. I am sure you think you heard it make a difference and I am sure you think that you could tell the difference between one consumer unit and another by 'listening' to it. there is no proof however.

Very expensive plastic stands for your hifi and even your mains adapters. Now as previously I am sure you think you can hear a difference, but cannot prove that such a difference exists except to yourself and like minded 'believers'

A ridiculously (in my view) costly mains adapter which you claim makes the 'timing' of the Hi-Fi better whatever that means? Of course, this is all subjective, and there is no proof it does anything except cost a lot of money.

Wires that cost a lot of money that the makers claim use special materials and processes to make the sound 'better' again, neither them or you are able to provide a single scientific shred of evidence that this is the case outside of your own 'experience'.

Outside, it the garden, you have buried what was described by another member as an 'electric scarecrow' which is in fact some sort of earthing device which you claim made the sound from your stereo better, and I am sure you will say that when it rains, the sound improves?

Now, on balance, who do you think looks like they are making more sense here? I know there are a few who would agree with you, and I know there are some who I know personally who subscribe to your views, but that does not mean I have to does it? Just because someone else thinks they can hear a difference does not mean I will does it?

I know you think that those who do not believe are simply looking for absolutes, though I am not sure why you think that is a bad thing? It is absolutely obvious to me that you are an intelligent, if not rational person and this is what makes me wonder about this kind of stuff.

So, in summary, you believe what you want, I will continue to see the peddlers of these items for what they are.
 
What mains adaptor? I have a mains filter for my digital front end and a mains block. Recordings were taken of a piece of music played with and without the block in line. The recordings were posted up here. A number of folks were able to hear a difference and stated a preference for the block.

Ultimately I wasn't that bothered by the results either way.

As for the consumer unit, as I recall, it cost less than 40 quid. I didn't listen to different CUs as this would be rather impractical.

I am happy with what my system can do and hope to demonstrate it at Scalford.

The only part of it that I won't be able to bring will be the dedicated mains and scarecrow under the garden that I hope hasn't been eaten by moles.
 
There is a new version of that block for £850. I can get mine upgraded for the difference in price. The last time I saw the "dancing salesman" he had a listen to the filter, the one made by Anthony and rathet liked it.

Bringing this thread back on topic, you forgot to mention my Mark Grant mains leads. £50 each.
 
I tried switching between an old Linn tonearm cable and a fancy Nordost one. They did indeed sound different. I can't say which was better, but the Nordost seemed to emphasize the bass relative to the other cable.

Yesterday I tried unplugging Airport Express, Maplins DACMagic power supply, Macbook Pro power adaptor and Timestep HE supply from my rusty old gang socket to see if that would give an audible improvement when playing a record via OC9II/Uphorik. It didn't. I wonder if the audibility of mains hardware depends on how your components are designed. For example, all my amplification is by Linn, who use switch mode power. My mains set up is appalling but I find sound consistent and good. It seems unlikely that dirty mains would make much progress through the shredder of that kind of supply.

On the other hand, some gear may use power components which allow all kinds of crap through. Some people have very clean mains and some don't. It's perfectly feasible to design a mains cable as a mains filter (e.g. low-pass inductor). It needn't cost 20 grand of course.

My point is that the disagreement over whether mains cables can be heard might depend on your gear and your mains. To make sense of these arguments I just assume everyone's wrong.
 
sonddek said:
I tried switching between an old Linn tonearm cable and a fancy Nordost one. They did indeed sound different. I can't say which was better, but the Nordost seemed to emphasize the bass relative to the other cable.

Yesterday I tried unplugging Airport Express, Maplins DACMagic power supply, Macbook Pro power adaptor and Timestep HE supply from my rusty old gang socket to see if that would give an audible improvement when playing a record via OC9II/Uphorik. It didn't. I wonder if the audibility of mains hardware depends on how your components are designed. For example, all my amplification is by Linn, who use switch mode power. My mains set up is appalling but I find sound consistent and good. It seems unlikely that dirty mains would make much progress through the shredder of that kind of supply.

On the other hand, some gear may use power components which allow all kinds of crap through. Some people have very clean mains and some don't. It's perfectly feasible to design a mains cable as a mains filter (e.g. low-pass inductor). It needn't cost 20 grand of course.

My point is that the disagreement over whether mains cables can be heard might depend on your gear and your mains. To make sense of these arguments I just assume everyone's wrong.
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Equally, it might depend on whether the queen of the audio faeries is on the rags or not.

Just as likely a premise.

Chris
 
aquapiranha said:
I see where you are coming from, but lets say you believe in UFO's and tell everyone so. Do you think it would be up to everyone else to prove they do not exist? Or more likely that the majority would expect you to come up with the evidence that they do?

This is the shift of onus that irks the non believers. Despite a couple of decades of this stuff, the people who make and sell the stuff and those who claim to hear differences have somehow managed to shift the onus of proof from themselves onto those who demand a little more rationality.

:)
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The "majority", at least in the context of this forum/thread are cable (or UFO) non-believers.
This majority is convinced that they are correct and no time is wasted telling the minority that they MUST be wrong. So, why not go the extra yard and tell them WHY they are wrong. It should be easy to do, because it is commonly accepted wisdom that cables can't make a difference. Consequently, the evidence to support this assertion should be readily available, or at least deriveable (spelling?)

It would be far more constructive to discuss the alternative theories, rather than the constant bickering,"yes they do"/"no they don't"style of discussion.
 
wwelly said:
The "majority", at least in the context of this forum/thread are cable (or UFO) non-believers.
This majority is convinced that they are correct and no time is wasted telling the minority that they MUST be wrong. So, why not go the extra yard and tell them WHY they are wrong. It should be easy to do, because it is commonly accepted wisdom that cables can't make a difference. Consequently, the evidence to support this assertion should be readily available, or at least deriveable (spelling?)

It would be far more constructive to discuss the alternative theories, rather than the constant bickering,"yes they do"/"no they don't"style of discussion.
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Er, the cable evangelists are the ones coming up with the daft claims. The onus is squarely upon them to back up the claims.

If someone announces that there are fairies at the bottom of their garden, it is up to them to prove it.

As far as discussing alternative theories, the problem is that nobody has ever come up with anything even approaching a valid theory to support cable foo. To date, there has been nothing meaningful to discuss.

As for the evidence demonstrating the arrant wrongness of cable foo, of course it is available. The problem is that it is all sciency & difficult sums, so yer average cable guy has about as much chance of understanding it as I have of jumping over the moon.

Chris

Chris
 
wwelly said:
The "majority", at least in the context of this forum/thread are cable (or UFO) non-believers.
This majority is convinced that they are correct and no time is wasted telling the minority that they MUST be wrong. So, why not go the extra yard and tell them WHY they are wrong. It should be easy to do, because it is commonly accepted wisdom that cables can't make a difference. Consequently, the evidence to support this assertion should be readily available, or at least deriveable (spelling?)

It would be far more constructive to discuss the alternative theories, rather than the constant bickering,"yes they do"/"no they don't"style of discussion.
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There are three, interlinked, questions here, but without an answer to question 1, the other two questions are irrelevant.

1) Do cables make an audible difference? This can only be answered by blind testing.

2) If such differences exist, do they consitute an improvement? This is entirely a matter of personal taste, so is not susceptible to reason or justification.

3) If such differences exist, and they constitute an improvement, what is a reasonable price premium over 'giveaway' cables? If £20,000 is outrageous, what about £2,000? Or £200? This is entirely a matter of perceived value versus the costs of making cables plus an element of profit, and is therefore not susceptible to reason or justification.
 
This is the same as saying that ghosts exist because no one has yet proved that they don't. The same could be said of crystal healing, aliens, ley lines, witchcraft, shamanism and other number of hocus pocus offerings. Your argument is moot, it is YOU who must prove that your beliefs are correct, not the other way around. This is the one part of the whole ridiculous subjective viewpoint which simply does not hold water. Like the religious you expect us to think like you simply because you say it is so.
 
wwelly said:
The "majority", at least in the context of this forum/thread are cable (or UFO) non-believers.
This majority is convinced that they are correct and no time is wasted telling the minority that they MUST be wrong. So, why not go the extra yard and tell them WHY they are wrong. It should be easy to do, because it is commonly accepted wisdom that cables can't make a difference. Consequently, the evidence to support this assertion should be readily available, or at least deriveable (spelling?)

It would be far more constructive to discuss the alternative theories, rather than the constant bickering,"yes they do"/"no they don't"style of discussion.
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Yes but many people who are sceptical about special cables, power conditioners, bits of wood etc have some technical knowledge to back up this opinion. As such they (I include myself here) have no incentive to set up complicated tests to prove what is already known. The believers would not accept such test results anyway so it is up to them to come up with the evidence to challenge existing knowledge. There is an unbridgeable gap here.
 
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