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Why are grammar schools elitist?

Just a thought but some of the concerns here are about the elitism of grammar schools. If they select the most able they will be elitist to a degree. Because there are only a few left and they are thought to produce results then the people who are able to get into the catchment areas will do so. But if grammar schools were universal across the country then this would stop or at least the effects would be lowered.

Oh if only it was this easy!!

My neighbour teaches in a local comp and about 1/3 of the teachers have left over the summer for various reasons but not all of them are because they won the lottery. That is a problem.

What industry needs changes quite quickly but teaching and development of courses takes longer. I am sure we could all think of how the language for web development changes frequently or at least frequently in relation to how quickly degree courses can develop.

No final thoughts, I am just brain dumping.
 
Tony L said:
Losing the argument to at least three highly experienced educational professionals here is far more amusing!
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Our alleged professionals (or at least 'key stage secondary school'...) are flat out denying something that is clearly apparent to users of comprehensive schools. Puzzling they should be so dogmatic.

I see Cooky has found support from the head of Ofsted.

Paul
 
Paul R said:
Our alleged professionals (or at least 'key stage secondary school'...) are flat out denying something that is clearly apparent to users of comprehensive schools. Puzzling they should be so dogmatic.

I see Cooky has found support from the head of Ofsted.

Paul
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er, is this the same head of Ofsted who has just said:“We will fail as a nation if we only get the top 15% to 20% of our children achieving well.

“We've got to, if we're going to compete with the best in the world, get many more children to achieve well in our schools.

“My fear is that by dividing children at 11 and by creating grammars and secondary moderns - because that's what we'll do - that we won't be able to achieve that ambition.”
 
fay spook said:
Just a thought but some of the concerns here are about the elitism of grammar schools. If they select the most able they will be elitist to a degree. Because there are only a few left and they are thought to produce results then the people who are able to get into the catchment areas will do so. But if grammar schools were universal across the country then this would stop or at least the effects would be lowered.

Oh if only it was this easy!!

My neighbour teaches in a local comp and about 1/3 of the teachers have left over the summer for various reasons but not all of them are because they won the lottery. That is a problem.

What industry needs changes quite quickly but teaching and development of courses takes longer. I am sure we could all think of how the language for web development changes frequently or at least frequently in relation to how quickly degree courses can develop.

No final thoughts, I am just brain dumping.
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would you support a health care system that was 'universal across the country'...and selective?
 
Well I've been called a twat by ks234, sadly I didn't get to see Bob Mcs insult to me.All for having the temerity to repeat the findings from the 2013 Ofsted report that based its conclusions on the outcomes of 80000 pupils.
 
cooky1257 said:
Well I've been called a twat by ks234, sadly I didn't get to see Bob Mcs insult to me and all for having the temerity to repeat the findings from the 2013 Ofsted report that based its conclusions on the outcomes of 80000 pupils.
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I did not call you a twat at all. That, quite simply, is not true.
 
ks.234 said:
I never said 'stop being a twat' to anyone, you must be confusing me with someone else
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'I don't teach facts Cocky, never have done, never will.

I teach looking, learning, reflection, investigating, developing, refining and don't be a twat.'

Ah I see now.....but it should read .."and not being a twat" to avoid any confusion;-)

Anyway about that Ofsted report....
 
matthewr said:
You asked why, if it was ok to give people assessed with special needs extra help why was it also not ok to give the brightest extra help. Special Educational Needs means people who, through no fault of their own and for a variety of reasons, need extra help. If you didn't mean SEN and just meant students with differing academic abilities then you don't really have a point because all those student are already treated, if not the same, then equally.

So your point is either at best misinformed or at worse stupid and offensive or else you don't really have a point at all.
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If i am the worst of your options, viz offensive, then you must be a hypocrite because your are exhibiting excactly this characteristic right now...welcome to the club of offensive people whom you so despise!

Simon
 
cooky1257 said:
'I don't teach facts Cocky, never have done, never will.

I teach looking, learning, reflection, investigating, developing, refining and don't be a twat.'

Ah I see now.....
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I'm sorry if you thought that comment was directed at you, it clearly wasn't directed at you, or anyone else. I think it obvious, especially given the context or your previous posts, that I was making a general, every man comment along the lines of, 'do your best, try your hardest, and do no harm'.
 
ks.234 said:
I'm sorry if you thought that comment was directed at you, it clearly wasn't directed at you, or anyone else. I think it obvious, especially given the context or your previous posts, that I was making a general, every man comment along the lines of, 'do your best, try your hardest, and do no harm'.
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Well the sourness of your responses and your ahem, typo on my name, did predispose me to read it the wrong way. We're OK, lets move on.
 
ks.234 said:
er, is this the same head of Ofsted who has just said:“We will fail as a nation if we only get the top 15% to 20% of our children achieving well.

“We've got to, if we're going to compete with the best in the world, get many more children to achieve well in our schools.

“My fear is that by dividing children at 11 and by creating grammars and secondary moderns - because that's what we'll do - that we won't be able to achieve that ambition.”
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I must assume, because you are a teacher and therefore have a degree, that you're not dim. But really.

Read the Wilshaw quotes. They are consistent.

(Of course, if you're seeking to show that Wilshaw isn't reliable you clearly cannot continue to use on him in your didactic opposition to grammar schools.)

Paul
 
Paul R said:
I must assume, because you are a teacher and therefore have a degree, that you're not dim. But really.

Read the Wilshaw quotes. They are consistent.

(Of course, if you're seeking to show that Wilshaw isn't reliable you clearly cannot continue to use on him in your didactic opposition to grammar schools.)

Paul
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Well, I failed my 11+, so yes, I guess I must be dim. Thank you for reminding me
 
Paul R said:
I must assume, because you are a teacher and therefore have a degree, that you're not dim. But really.

Read the Wilshaw quotes. They are consistent.

(Of course, if you're seeking to show that Wilshaw isn't reliable you clearly cannot continue to use on him in your didactic opposition to grammar schools.)

Paul
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Doesn't Finland have the highest scoring students in Europe?, do they have grammar schools?
 
You cannot fail the 11+. Being unsuited to grammar school isn't failure.

Your lack of substantive response is, however, noted.

Paul
 
Paul R said:
How is this comment relevant to what Michael Wilshaw has said?

Paul
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Because if a high level attainment across the board is the objective, which I think everyone would agree on, then why not follow best practice?.
 
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