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Who should pay for social care ?

TheTories are at war with themselves. MP Charles Walker, a man who’s revealed himself to be an extremist in many ways, says his government is printing money to pay for its promises, yet they won’t put up taxes to pay down the debt and fund public services. I like the way, just after saying the above, he claimed the opposition “is addicted to spending”. When his party leaves office, there’s going to be the mother of all national hangovers.
 
Labour should seize the opportunity to make the case for alternative ways of funding social care

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ional-insurance-regressive-labour-social-care

Liz Kendall was shockingly bad when interviewed on this mornings "Today". Wouldn't (couldn't?) even provide any detail on a more equitable solution than an NI hike. Yeah, Liz, we know it's not a good idea and, yep, we know Kier is against it but what would Labour actually do differently? Nope, we have to wait until the election manifesto to come out. Perhaps it'll be on the page after the Labour policy to lock the stable door because the horse has bolted.
 
Liz Kendall was shockingly bad when interviewed on this mornings "Today". Wouldn't (couldn't?) even provide any detail on a more equitable solution than an NI hike. Yeah, Liz, we know it's not a good idea and, yep, we know Kier is against it but what would Labour actually do differently? Nope, we have to wait until the election manifesto to come out. Perhaps it'll be on the page after the Labour policy to lock the stable door because the horse has bolted.
Yes, I listened to that too.

Isn’t it in Labour’s actually job description to oppose? More important, if Labour doesn’t stand against unfair and regressive taxation, and a lying Prime Minister, what does it stand for or against.

Is it possible to take the Labour Party through capability proceedings? Or is it gross misconduct?
 
Isn’t it in Labour’s actually job description to oppose? More important, if Labour doesn’t stand against unfair and regressive taxation, and a lying Prime Minister, what does it stand for or against.

In fairness the one thing that we did get from that interview was that they are opposed to it. Sadly, it was bit thin on why I should support them in future.

Is it possible to take the Labour Party through capability proceedings? Or is it gross misconduct?

Would a stiff letter to the Guardian do? :)
 
(most) people pay income tax throughout their working lives (hopefully) according to how much they earn.

Tax the corporations, of make them pay for social care.

Big problem for most SMEs is that corporation tax on profits doesn't reflect cash at bank.

If you buy a shed and can only depreciate 4% per annum your profit is gone but still taxable.
 
I hope no-one minds me posting here for a first post. I've just read through several dozen posts in this thread and the central concept running through it is erroneous.

The UK government funds healthcare and it is a sovereign currency issuer, so the money it spends on healthcare (or anything it spends on) is spent into existence, not 'borrowed' or 'recovered' from anywhere as 'funding'. You pay tax for a different reason which I'll get to in a moment. The NI system as conceived of is actually obsolete post 1971, I'll get to that as well. But first...

The government is mandated to provide healthcare spending, of this there is no dispute. Obviously since 1948 so-called 'fiscal conservatives' (as they refer to them in Uncle Sam-land) have always been anti-government spending on such large-scale social infrastructure. Until the abolition of the gold standard in '71 this had some merit; since there had to be a real consideration of issued money in relation to mobilisation of resources (and any resource limits). Post 1971 it is meaningless as a core concept. The question of resource limits always remains, the question of funding does not. The government can and does fund anything it wants to fund. That should be evident from at least 2008 onwards in the very public raising of the deficit ceiling after the financial crash. I say 'deficit', forget the word 'debt' because it is a red herring. The word deficit is more important, because it is gravely misunderstood.
Under Thatcher - itself under the sway of Friedman monetarism and the hare-brained concept of 'money-supply control', the idea was that government would aim to practically eliminate government spending and hand all mechanisms for goods and service provision to the private sector. They soon discovered that this doesn't work, but at the time still didn't know how or why (largely because all the people who actually understand monetary operations are few and lots had died off from the 1930s to the 1970s). Whilst knowing that of course private entities do actually provide goods and services, they seemed to be utterly confused about how such operations were funded.

Viz...the concepts of government currency issue as 'spending'; the purchase of services by government (a huge section of the economy, perhaps the largest and certainly the core of many more periphery activities); the concept of loan elasticity in banks: i.e. loans create deposits, not deposits 'fund' loans, which is fantasyland. So by attempting to curb their Thatcherite deficit (largely on social public spending) and 'control money supply', they simply throttled the supply of currency (credit) to people who needed it. See, when the government sector doesn't 'spend' the private sector is deprived of funding. This is what happens in a low-spend economy which also taxes. Since tax is what happens when government aims to collect and return money spent into the economy - it is destruction of spent money to create 'fiscal space', should this be required. The raising of tax by central government is not to 'fund' it is to create space for new spending (which is low in an economic ideology favouring tiny deficits). Now there are some people who like to avoid tax and find ways to do it. They are usually people who are meant to be paying larger amounts of tax on higher profits, but they avoid it. Since the monetarist governments are deficit-shy because they don't understand what it means, they drop that creation of fiscal space onto people who can't avoid tax. The fact that they actually don't need to do this to spend in a scenario of chronic underspending is evident. Chronic underspending where needed that is; not into the pockets of corporations who drain away government spending.

Now to the issue: who pays for social care? It is funding from government spending, end of. When it isn't, that is an ideological and perhaps moral choice, not a financially motivated decision. The small taxpayer should be furious that he/she is being hit for fiscal space because 1) government is obsessed with the monetarist notion of tiny deficits (equals: throttling of currency to private/domestic sector) and 2) that large tax avoiders are allowed to block up fiscal space with their unspent income largely derived from public spending (wholly derived from government issue). Since in the health sector the bulk of it is public spending going to people and organisations who are 'charged' with providing services, but in fact take the money and increase the prices, while delivering minimal return because they are profit-motivated.

The question dividing it into Mrs A who has a £300,000 house and Mrs B who lives in a council flat is a diversion from the central problem. Once you break the policy of universal coverage by means testing you break the entire thing. The problem is not there, it is in the false concept of government being currency-limited rather than the country having an (eventual) resource limit (yes Mrs May, you do have a 'magic money tree', use it wisely!). And the muddle-headed notion that therefore it is funded by private individual means to 'take up the slack'. The concept of privatisation in public service is a notion backwards in relation to monetary/fiscal operations. The private business sector (like you the private domestic sector) is a currency user, not an issuer, so they run out of it even when they don't run out of resources. They have, nevertheless, worked out a way to get a direct line of government credit, while the bulk of the population hasn't and has to rely on private sector crumbs.

You can have high-quality social care. If I mentioned something above, but didn't come back to expand upon it, please say so.
Thanks for this, welcome to the forum.
 
TheTories are at war with themselves. MP Charles Walker, a man who’s revealed himself to be an extremist in many ways, says his government is printing money to pay for its promises, yet they won’t put up taxes to pay down the debt and fund public services. I like the way, just after saying the above, he claimed the opposition “is addicted to spending”. When his party leaves office, there’s going to be the mother of all national hangovers.

When people like Walker say 'printing money' it's usually meant pejoratively and is a scare tactic to make people believe they're on the path to Weimar hyperinflation. The question anyone should ask themselves is: is the UK at risk of overbalancing currency issue against resources? The answer is a resounding no! Never. There are so many under-employed/unemployed people and fallow industries that it doesn't even make sense.

The government doesn't 'print' any money for public spending anyway, it just credits bank accounts for whatever it purchases or makes transfer payments (like state pensions). It does that anyway, regardless. The question of 'the debt' is most annoying to me though. The so-called 'public debt' is an utter misnomer. This relic of the past was repurposed by monetarists to act as a limiter to budget expenditure - with gilt-edged bonds supposedly sold to match the proposed spending. A monetary sovereign government issuing 'debt' is incoherent. How can this so-called debt denominated in the government's own currency and held at the Bank of England be actual debt? Especially since the bulk of money use to purchase it is taken as loans from the BoE anyway! It's a mere asset swap where people promise to surrender money in exchange for an interest payment (which Gov UK can always meet anyway). You can always pay a debt in your own currency.

All GovUk needs to do is purchase services (including labour), directly if possible, to put resources to use in furnishing the needs of the population, there's no sense in waiting for reluctant private enterprise to never employ people or deliver services. Instead it is dedicated to directing its spending direct to private companies who squirrel it away and further block issue capacity and cause unnecessary deficit expansion which frightens the hawks to death. Though to be sure deficits above the 40-year target of between 1.5-2% are just austerity deficits which mean nothing but public penury. Blair allowed this Tory-led sideshow to roll on through the 90s as people lived on obviously limited credit, but then inevitably ran out of spending capacity.

You don't get funding for public services from taxation, these are related, but totally parallel operations. ask yourself this: in 2008 when it was circulated in the press that Liam Byrne left the note with: "Dear Chief Secretary, I'm afraid there is no money. Kind regards – and good luck! Liam," the next day every single transfer payment the government makes was still carried out. Without 'issuing debt' or a debate about 'raising the deficit' (which happens automatically anyway) or somehow borrowing this money from somewhere, or some emergency tax measure. And yet the population still seems to think the government borrows its own currency. It's a deep-seated problem.
 
Liz Kendall was shockingly bad when interviewed on this mornings "Today". Wouldn't (couldn't?) even provide any detail on a more equitable solution than an NI hike. Yeah, Liz, we know it's not a good idea and, yep, we know Kier is against it but what would Labour actually do differently? Nope, we have to wait until the election manifesto to come out. Perhaps it'll be on the page after the Labour policy to lock the stable door because the horse has bolted.
I wonder whether there's concern in inner party circles that the Tories would steal/rebrand any good ideas Labour put out there? It's not like they don't have form for that during Covid. Not an excuse for not putting them out there, IMHO, but I could see central office having collywobbles (if we assume they do, actually have ideas which is not a given). Either way, I agree, Labour should put its ideas up for examination. If nothing else, if the Tories did nick them, they'd be able to say 'we said that first', and at least the ideas would be in action.
 
I've been waiting since Starmer took over to see any actual policy and it's been dismal. There was (a year ago?) the hour-long statement made by Anneliese Dodds when she was shadow chancellor. It was empty drivel. And look who their current shadow chancellor is: Rachel Reeves, a complete neoliberal blockhead calling for 'deficit reduction' and all the other mindless nonsense. Blairite residue.
The Tories really have the jump on Labour because Johnson long ago realised the govt's capacity for funding, whilst publicly sticking to the usual narrative to allow them to maintain austerity as a public policy when they need it. Geppetto's wooden creation Starmer has retreated into Blairism after the Corbyn shadow-govt decided (under McDonnell's stewardship) to let the public believe that it was willing to 'inflate' the economy to achieve its policy and that it had to 'find the money' and had 'found' it. Which is what the Sun and the Times and the BBC ran with. "Free money and broadband for all." That has been Labour's Achilles heel since 1978, people believeing that they crash the economy with profligate spending.

The Labour Party has no policy. It has some worthy social policies, but can't achieve them because it is stuck in the Thatcherite mire Kinnock and Blair led it into. So it is willing to do things like cut payments to pensioners and disabled to 'save money'. There are an impotent force unfortunately.
 
I've been waiting since Starmer took over to see any actual policy and it's been dismal. There was (a year ago?) the hour-long statement made by Anneliese Dodds when she was shadow chancellor. It was empty drivel. And look who their current shadow chancellor is: Rachel Reeves, a complete neoliberal blockhead calling for 'deficit reduction' and all the other mindless nonsense. Blairite residue.
The Tories really have the jump on Labour because Johnson long ago realised the govt's capacity for funding, whilst publicly sticking to the usual narrative to allow them to maintain austerity as a public policy when they need it. Geppetto's wooden creation Starmer has retreated into Blairism after the Corbyn shadow-govt decided (under McDonnell's stewardship) to let the public believe that it was willing to 'inflate' the economy to achieve its policy and that it had to 'find the money' and had 'found' it. Which is what the Sun and the Times and the BBC ran with. "Free money and broadband for all." That has been Labour's Achilles heel since 1978, people believeing that they crash the economy with profligate spending.

The Labour Party has no policy. It has some worthy social policies, but can't achieve them because it is stuck in the Thatcherite mire Kinnock and Blair led it into. So it is willing to do things like cut payments to pensioners and disabled to 'save money'. There are an impotent force unfortunately.

Welcome to the forum. Looking forward to hearing a bit more about your HiFi system and musical tastes.
 
The Tories really have the jump on Labour because Johnson long ago realised the govt's capacity for funding, whilst publicly sticking to the usual narrative to allow them to maintain austerity as a public policy when they need it. Geppetto's wooden creation Starmer has retreated into Blairism after the Corbyn shadow-govt decided (under McDonnell's stewardship) to let the public believe that it was willing to 'inflate' the economy to achieve its policy and that it had to 'find the money' and had 'found' it. Which is what the Sun and the Times and the BBC ran with. "Free money and broadband for all." That has been Labour's Achilles heel since 1978, people believeing that they crash the economy with profligate spending.

That is pretty much what happened when the UK had to get a loan from the IMF in 1976. Why wouldn't the same happen again now if a government decided to spend big?
 
I've been waiting since Starmer took over to see any actual policy and it's been dismal. There was (a year ago?) the hour-long statement made by Anneliese Dodds when she was shadow chancellor. It was empty drivel. And look who their current shadow chancellor is: Rachel Reeves, a complete neoliberal blockhead calling for 'deficit reduction' and all the other mindless nonsense. Blairite residue.
The Tories really have the jump on Labour because Johnson long ago realised the govt's capacity for funding, whilst publicly sticking to the usual narrative to allow them to maintain austerity as a public policy when they need it. Geppetto's wooden creation Starmer has retreated into Blairism after the Corbyn shadow-govt decided (under McDonnell's stewardship) to let the public believe that it was willing to 'inflate' the economy to achieve its policy and that it had to 'find the money' and had 'found' it. Which is what the Sun and the Times and the BBC ran with. "Free money and broadband for all." That has been Labour's Achilles heel since 1978, people believeing that they crash the economy with profligate spending.

The Labour Party has no policy. It has some worthy social policies, but can't achieve them because it is stuck in the Thatcherite mire Kinnock and Blair led it into. So it is willing to do things like cut payments to pensioners and disabled to 'save money'. There are an impotent force unfortunately.
Good post and welcome to the forum. I think I like you.

One question: does your account of public spending differ significantly from (e.g.) Richard Murphy's? I've posted one or two good Twitter threads by him here (not that they appear to have changed anyone's mind).
 
That is pretty much what happened when the UK had to get a loan from the IMF in 1976. Why wouldn't the same happen again now if a government decided to spend big?

They didn't have to get a loan, which is exactly what Benn said at the time. It was the ideological confusion of the time from people with a pre-1971 mindset. The only nations that are forced to take loans are those that don't have monetary sovereignty, which is why they have foreign denominated debt. At the time the IMF had 'threatened' to crash the UK economy if it didn't fall into line with the then new monetarist line of thought about deficit reduction (etc). They couldn't have done it and wouldn't have if they could. Explain to me how a monetary sovereign currency issue 'borrows' money from the IMF? Who issues it to them to borrow?
 
Good post and welcome to the forum. I think I like you.

One question: does your account of public spending differ significantly from (e.g.) Richard Murphy's? I've posted one or two good Twitter threads by him here (not that they appear to have changed anyone's mind).

Not significantly; though some time ago Richard Murphy wasn't quite on the line he is now. I'm glad he is though because he has some influence.
 
Welcome to the forum. Looking forward to hearing a bit more about your HiFi system and musical tastes.
Yes, thanks. I have also posted at WigWam, but you never know who might share your musical tastes elsewhere. I am mainly classical and jazz, but lots of other things. Right now I'm listening to Nana Mouskouri's 1967 album Le Jour Où La Colombe...which may frighten some, but it is sublime.
 
I suspect Tory MP David Gawk has just dropped the underlying motivation behind the upcoming social care changes on C4 News. The implication being the tax aspect is the part that will be argued over (NI vs. income tax), but the real payload will be a fixed cap on estates and inheritance, e.g. somewhere between £40-80k as an absolute maximum that will be taken by the state to pay for a person’s end of life care.

I also heard that. And my initial assumption was that I must have either mis-heard him, or he'd said the inverse of what he meant. i.e. Perhaps the idea was to tax the part *above* a minimum of so many tens of thousand. But I fear you're right and he means to grab in the regressive way to save his rich mates. :-/

So far as I am concerned the basic point is that 'Social Care' should become a part of the NHS, not hived off to either Local Councils or privatised. Even if councils were *allowed* to raise more to pay for it, it would mean wealthier areas would get better care.

WRT source of 'money', I'd use general taxiation, but actually *apply* this to tax dodgers of the many kinds that currently vampire off the rest of us and who dodge tax, offshore, use tricks like LLP's, etc, etc.

Note that recent Governments have cut back the staff and resources of the Revenue people, etc. If they were better funded and resourced they'd find it possible to chase the blatent failures of the wealthy to confirm to *existing* laws like those on 'beneficial ownership'. Hard to get Tax from my "Mr M, Mouse" when he seems to be on a small island far from the UK...

The problem here is that it is hard to find out how much wealth and income is hidden, or who has it, etc. But if we knew I suspect we'd find it helped quite a lot.
 


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