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Where do you stand on nuclear power (fission)?

Yeah it's a shame the government had to pay all those billions to engineers to design a hole in the ground, else there might be some money left to buy the hospital a battery.

This is an engineering problem. The system supplying the power needs to be able to react to changes in demand and supply and balance these. Renewables, especially the Variable Renewable Energies (VRE) introduce second by second changes in supply - as in wind and sunlight - and then you obviously have the same in demand, although this can be better managed such as by the strategies I mentioned upthread.

This is from the ravingly pro-renewable international group IRENA, and may help explain that we need to generate something that a) is always on, and b) can be used to vary supply to balance against demand and the variability in supply of VRE.

https://www.irena.org/publications/2018/Nov/Power-system-flexibility-for-the-energy-transition

Batteries cannot fix this problem. The way they work, the number you would have to have to have creates a worse ecological problem than the generating options, the elements required to support the production of them are not available and in the short to medium term the technology is not there yet.

This required "baseload generation" could be gas, oil, nuclear or maybe potentially biofuels - but that may not be sustainable with agriculture. So it is poisoned air (will kill people) or radioactive waste (might kill people if managed badly). Or Hyrdo if you live in Norway. Not that helpful in Suffolk. And the goals of zero carbon by (or hopefully long before) 2050 are not served by continued fossil fuel use.
 
I don't know what to do with the waste, that's one of the reasons I don't support nuclear power. Whatever is done with it will be very expensive and there are no guarantees it will be safe.

The fact that there's already a whole lot of waste that nobody can afford to deal with properly (if indeed there is a proper method of disposal) is not a strong argument in favor of nuclear power.

Yeah it's a shame the government had to pay all those billions to engineers to design a hole in the ground, else there might be some money left to buy the hospital a battery.

Just imagine the size of the hole we’re going to need to store all that CO2 and NOx we’ve dumped in the atmosphere. Just imagine the cost of the global atmospheric cleanup required.

My understanding is that the entire world’s stock of high level nuclear waste would fit into a space smaller than one of these new Amazon warehouses that are popping up everywhere. It’s a technological and engineering problem, and to my mind, it is dwarfed by the magnitude and cost of sorting out the mess caused by fossil fuel electricity generation.

A degree of perspective and realism is helpful.
 
Batteries cannot fix this problem. The way they work, the number you would have to have to have creates a worse ecological problem than the generating options, the elements required to support the production of them are not available and in the short to medium term the technology is not there yet.

I'd agree with the last comments about "not there yet". But not with the absolute blanket assertion that "Batteries cannot fix this problem".

It depends on if you want "Batteries" to solve *all* the variability problems. And what you mean by "Batteries". It seems quite possible that they could become a large factor in dealing with variability - e.g. by having millions of car owners leave their (battery) car connected when not in use, driving about. Thus providing their battery to a grid as a place to both put and *take* some energy over short term variations.

"Batteries" like solar power is seeing a number of real developments in the technologies available. Combine that with an information grid, etc, and it seems quite possible for it to be a very significant contribution to short term storage.

I suspect, though that the 'variability' of demand, etc, means we will need 'varying' methods to be employed. No one solution will fix all of this.
 
It seems quite possible that they could become a large factor in dealing with variability - e.g. by having millions of car owners leave their (battery) car connected when not in use, driving about. Thus providing their battery to a grid as a place to both put and *take* some energy over short term variations.

I did suggest this further upthread. As does the document I linked to. Demand management is very possible.

We have to build now, and guess how successful demand management and improved battery technology will be in the future. Most models suggest removing large scale generation would be being very, very optimistic. Given we will also need to replace some fossil fuel use that electricity may not help with, excess renewable power may be better used creating hydrogen, with less overall loss than battery storage. This could clean up marine, heavy freight and rail where electrification would be a problem.
 
Batteries can never be an answer. Will the energy they store, over whatever their lifetime is, pay back production costs? What energy sources will charge them? How will they be powered?
 
I don't know what to do with the waste, that's one of the reasons I don't support nuclear power. Whatever is done with it will be very expensive and there are no guarantees it will be safe.

The fact that there's already a whole lot of waste that nobody can afford to deal with properly (if indeed there is a proper method of disposal) is not a strong argument in favor of nuclear power.
What to do with the waste?

Bury it in exhausted deep mines - coal, diamonds, gold.

Vitrify it and store it in some desert wasteland, or on a mountain top, or on an island.

The problem is political not technical.
 
My understanding is that the entire world’s stock of high level nuclear waste would fit into a space smaller than one of these new Amazon warehouses that are popping up everywhere.

Fit in for a fraction of a second before it dissembled itself with the heat produced.
 
I'd agree with the last comments about "not there yet". But not with the absolute blanket assertion that "Batteries cannot fix this problem".

It depends on if you want "Batteries" to solve *all* the variability problems. And what you mean by "Batteries". It seems quite possible that they could become a large factor in dealing with variability - e.g. by having millions of car owners leave their (battery) car connected when not in use, driving about. Thus providing their battery to a grid as a place to both put and *take* some energy over short term variations.

"Batteries" like solar power is seeing a number of real developments in the technologies available. Combine that with an information grid, etc, and it seems quite possible for it to be a very significant contribution to short term storage.

I suspect, though that the 'variability' of demand, etc, means we will need 'varying' methods to be employed. No one solution will fix all of this.

This. Grid tied local generation and storage will soon make a big difference. Not just cars but powerwalls etc. There is a real need for battery technology now, which means there's a lot of money in it so the development of new and better chemistries in the short to medium term is now realistic.

While hydrogen fueled cars don't look to be gaining much market share, hydrogen production is very clean, storage isn't such a problem when stationary, and the energy can be used directly via a fuel cell to charge cars or fed into the grid via an inverter.

One way to ease peak demand is to introduce spot pricing based on wholesale electricity rates. I believe the UK has been changing over to smart electricity meters?
 
This. Grid tied local generation and storage will soon make a big difference. Not just cars but powerwalls etc. There is a real need for battery technology now, which means there's a lot of money in it so the development of new and better chemistries in the short to medium term is now realistic.

While hydrogen fueled cars don't look to be gaining much market share, hydrogen production is very clean, storage isn't such a problem when stationary, and the energy can be used directly via a fuel cell to charge cars or fed into the grid via an inverter.

One way to ease peak demand is to introduce spot pricing based on wholesale electricity rates. I believe the UK has been changing over to smart electricity meters?
Hydrogen fuel cells seem attractive. How easy is it to produce hydrogen on a truly commercial scale and how much power does it take and where does that power come from?
 
Bury it in exhausted deep mines - coal, diamonds, gold.

Vitrify it and store it in some desert wasteland, or on a mountain top, or on an island.

The problem is political not technical.
You have to store the high level waste in a cooling facility for a few years first or the glass will melt. Once the short lived isotopes have decayed, vitrification and deep burial is fine
 
Hydrogen fuel cells seem attractive. How easy is it to produce hydrogen on a truly commercial scale and how much power does it take and where does that power come from?

I don't know a lot about hydrogen production except that it's done either by hydrolysis or by combining methane with steam. I don't think either method is particularly efficient, but nor is scaling generation to meet peak demand.
I guess the obvious UK source would be wind but biomass production may be worth a look too. There seems to be a bit of interest in algae as biomass these days but it's too early to know if it will come to anything.
 
Batteries can never be an answer. Will the energy they store, over whatever their lifetime is, pay back production costs? What energy sources will charge them? How will they be powered?

Odd posting. You start with an absolute assertion that would require you to already *know* the answers to the questions you then ask.

Note also that "batteries" can include fuel cells, etc. cf elsewhere.
 
This. Grid tied local generation and storage will soon make a big difference. Not just cars but powerwalls etc. There is a real need for battery technology now, which means there's a lot of money in it so the development of new and better chemistries in the short to medium term is now realistic.

While hydrogen fueled cars don't look to be gaining much market share, hydrogen production is very clean, storage isn't such a problem when stationary, and the energy can be used directly via a fuel cell to charge cars or fed into the grid via an inverter.

One way to ease peak demand is to introduce spot pricing based on wholesale electricity rates. I believe the UK has been changing over to smart electricity meters?

The current "smart" meters are actually pretty 'dumb' and it's already clear that they'll need replacing with ones that can provide more appropriate features *and* be more secure from hacking, etc.

The key point for me is that "batteries" can include fuel cells. Some 'green' sources like tidal power can be well predicted long in advance. Others like wind are more difficult to predict beyond the short term, etc. The present 'solution' is to rely on a mix of source and locations. However by using such sources to 'charge' fuel cell arrangements it becomes possible to store *and* transfer* stored energy. One advantage of gas now is that it can be stored, etc.

Hence I feel that the current (pun alert) focus on using wind, etc, to generate electric power is missing out on the above which I think will need to be a part of the mix. Particularly given that we already have a network for gas distribution and storage.
 
Odd posting. You start with an absolute assertion that would require you to already *know* the answers to the questions you then ask.

Note also that "batteries" can include fuel cells, etc. cf elsewhere.
The key question is, whatever the storage medium, where and how is the energy to be stored produced?
 
The moon is a sensible place, much lower energy requirements than dumping to the sun and no orbit decay trouble. If only launch vehicles were more reliable.
 
I worked in the Nuclear Power industry in Britain as a C&I Engjneer - just to declare my bias up front. As a graduate i was trained in reactor design and technology with a focus on previous disasters and why they happened so we might help avoid new ones ... or at least not repeat the old ones. Obviously what follows will be biased by my training but was accepted by many of us as fact at the time, times change, but I thought my experience might be interesting to some of you folks here discussing this:

UK has has three generations of reactors in commercial use, horrible word, i joined a nationalised industry that was then privatised to the distaste of many of us.

The first generation of gas cooled reactors, magnox, might have been half decent at producing plutonium for bombs, but that is very old news. They were mostly decommissioned or decommisioning in my time. I assume they are all shut down now. Is there a good use for old nuclear sites? Yes, new nuclear generation!

The second generation of advanced gas cool reactors (AGR) are very poor at producing plutonium, if they were designed to do so they were very badly designed, no, they are for making electricity, we didn't need any more plutonium anyway! They were design to reuse conventional plant items from the standard coal fired stations of the day, to be safe and cheap to run. They have generally been the former, not the later. Complex designs and problems have made them uneconomical in some senses, nearly wiped away by the dash for gas, however what is the true cost of generating power? Inherently safer at a reactor physics level I was taught there was no positive feedback on loss of coolant/moderator unlike Chernobyl.

So when it came time for third generation, you might hope we redesigned the complexity out of the AGR and made even safer and cheaper to run reactors designed in the UK. Nope we bought cheaper PWR "off the shelf" from USA. Yet we couldn't just install an off the shelf design and get it through UK regulations so it got modified to make it safer still and so ended up expensive. A story from the time has top brass in engineering visiting the control room at Sizewell B to reduce costs during the construction phase, and removing unneeded windows from the control room in the belief they were helping ... as contract variations they added to the cost ...

Sadly PWR arguably have the same potential for positive feedback on loss of coolant/moderator as Chernobyl, I'm not suggesting Sizewell is unsafe, but it is a shame we gave up on UK design of the only reactor design at the time, as i understand it, that had inherently safer core designs. A idealogical point perhaps but one that was felt important by the reactor physics guys that knew more than i will ever know about such things. No containment domes were built over AGRs yet one was built over Sizewell B ... just in case.

We lost the capability to design our own safer reactors, now we can't even afford to fund building other's designs it seems, I left the industry not long after completing my graduate training, dejected at the direction nuclear generation was going, and at a personal level wanting to design and build stuff not but it and install it.
 


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