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Where do you stand on nuclear power (fission)?

The only renewables currently proven are wind turbines, solar PV and hydro. They all have their issues, as does tidal, which remains an outlier for lots of pretty tough technical and environmental reasons.

Having worked for a company that has produced commercial tidal turbines that are happily running after 5 years on site, I'm particularly interested in your comments above. The technical aspects are well-known with robust engineering solutions in place, but clearly much more difficult than say offshore wind. The environmental aspects you infer are new to me as I'm well versed in what is required and the inspections/data gathering required and I don't see a problem; perhaps you can give some examples of the environmental issues that cause tidal turbines to be 'an outlier' ?

CHE
 
Having worked for a company that has produced commercial tidal turbines that are happily running after 5 years on site, I'm particularly interested in your comments above. The technical aspects are well-known with robust engineering solutions in place, but clearly much more difficult than say offshore wind. The environmental aspects you infer are new to me as I'm well versed in what is required and the inspections/data gathering required and I don't see a problem; perhaps you can give some examples of the environmental issues that cause tidal turbines to be 'an outlier' ?

CHE
OK, here's what I recall, offhand. Hydro tends to be viable because it's hugely expensive to build but a very, very long lived solution. There are hydro stations running in Scotland that started life well over a century ago. No doubt the turbines, etc, are more recent but I bet they're budgeting for a >30-year working lifecycle. 5 years is, er, a drop in the ocean. Maybe come back when you've got solutions that have been running for another couple of decades? My understanding is that corrosion means the lifecycle of turbines is far far shorter than for freshwater hydro. Then you have the issues with bad weather that dweezil mentions damaging the infrastructure. You'll notice that wave power, from Salter's Ducks to Pelamis and all the others, has never got beyond the prototype stage and my recollection is that the sea just breaks everything.

I could support a series of smaller-scale tidal lagoons, but a barrage across an estuary disturbs the upstream ecosystem. I used to support the idea of barrages for the Severn, Mersey, Dee and Thames estuaries, but have gone cool on the idea. IIRC there are a number of wetland breeding sites along the Severn estuary that bring in some quite rare and endangered species, and disruption to the tidal rhythms, or longer-duration tidal flooding and longer duration drying-out could disrupt the food supply from molluscs and other water borne creatures, not to mention shoreline vegetation. And there's the problem with spawning and migratory fish. Ditto the Thames estuary.
 
Here we have lots of wind turbines, a fused salt solar collector that is a demo project, various PV installations and one pumped storage so it sounds good. BUT There has been a shed load of proposals to put in vast amounts of PV with the associated forest of pylons. This benevolent plan to increase renewables is funded by an American company and has caused a howl of protest about the effects on the environment and endangered species. No one wants any more PV because the resulting acres, sorry hectares, of mirrors just destroys everything that is valuable here in Andalucia. HT lines that kill off endangered species are part of the plan and underground cabling has been ignored. We have high 40's in summer and no one wants 50's.

Go find a desert where there is no population, NIMBY lives OK.
 
OK, here's what I recall, offhand. Hydro tends to be viable because it's hugely expensive to build but a very, very long lived solution. There are hydro stations running in Scotland that started life well over a century ago. No doubt the turbines, etc, are more recent but I bet they're budgeting for a >30-year working lifecycle. 5 years is, er, a drop in the ocean. Maybe come back when you've got solutions that have been running for another couple of decades? My understanding is that corrosion means the lifecycle of turbines is far far shorter than for freshwater hydro. Then you have the issues with bad weather that dweezil mentions damaging the infrastructure. You'll notice that wave power, from Salter's Ducks to Pelamis and all the others, has never got beyond the prototype stage and my recollection is that the sea just breaks everything.

I could support a series of smaller-scale tidal lagoons, but a barrage across an estuary disturbs the upstream ecosystem. I used to support the idea of barrages for the Severn, Mersey, Dee and Thames estuaries, but have gone cool on the idea. IIRC there are a number of wetland breeding sites along the Severn estuary that bring in some quite rare and endangered species, and disruption to the tidal rhythms, or longer-duration tidal flooding and longer duration drying-out could disrupt the food supply from molluscs and other water borne creatures, not to mention shoreline vegetation. And there's the problem with spawning and migratory fish. Ditto the Thames estuary.

OK, so you have nothing definite then about tidal turbines and certainly little about the environmental issues you stated exist.

You state "Maybe come back when you've got solutions that have been running for another couple of decades?" Well the company I worked for had prototypes that operated as grid-connected machines for that long - to clarify, yes decades. So I'm back.

Then you conflate the problems with wave energy devices where the sea state has a significant impact (technical joke) and suggest they affect tidal machines which, er they don't. How do I know ? Well I was involved with the loading cases and resultant engineering which are (relatively) easy to define.

You're correct to mention fish and sea mammals (eg seals) which is why such machines are carefully monitored and have a clean bill of health.

Hydro units are totally different, but that wasn't my point.

CHE
 
I don’t see any take up of tidal barrage solutions anywhere in the world, CHE, which is surprising if there are no problems left to resolve.
 
Tell me why there wouldn't be?
Well you are the one alleging it, so it is not for me to prove it for you.

You claim it, you prove it.

If it helps, I think you could pile the waste up (like the slag heaps of old) or put in an old salt mine or similar. The ongoing costs would be security, mostly, with some remote monitoring of the radiation and heat levels.
 
You dispute it, you say why.
You really don't understand that the prosecution has to prove its case, do you? If you have no evidence as to the cost of managing nuclear waste, just say so now.

You might not have seen my edit which should show how little energy would be involved in managing waste material...
 
You really don't understand that the prosecution has to prove its case, do you? If you have no evidence as to the cost of managing nuclear waste, just say so now.

You might not have seen my edit which should show how little energy would be involved in managing waste material...
No I haven't. CBA TBH.
But I can extrapolate for the next 250,000 years as well as the next man.
Okay, so 250,000 years.
Inspected once a week = 13,000,000
Each inspection has the guy driving 25 miles. Conveniently his car gets 25 miles per gallon. How many gallons is that?
Inspected by his boss once a month - 3,000000 visits. His boss has to come further, 100 miles, he gets 25 to the gallon too. 12,000,000 gallons. And the Annual inspection by the overseeing body...jeez, that could really mount up.
40 years down the line global warming means the waste is getting too hot for safety - remember this isn't all low level waste. It needs refrigerating. The system consumes Ikw per hour, and needs replacing every 50 years. 2,190,000,000Kwh, without factoring in maintenance. These figures are very generous and don't factor in cockups, like the glass bricks some is encased in becoming fragile and disintegrating, even someone selling them out the back door to build with, etc
Maybe it doesn't go smoothly...1,000 years down the line the underground repository gets fractures due to adjacent fracking back in the 2000's. This damages the refrigeration and the backup refrigeration plants. Fortunately the religious cult which has grown up over the previous 500 years to caretaker the waste facility is able to persuade the remaining population to drink Flavour Aid, leaving the world to the softly glowing spiders.

Too much imagination? But some of us have too little. You really think you can predict what might happen in the next 250 milleniums? I can't even do the next 25 years. Can you?
 
I don’t see any take up of tidal barrage solutions anywhere in the world, CHE, which is surprising if there are no problems left to resolve.

I've been discussing tidal turbines, not barrages - they're totally different as I'm sure you know. The reason they're aren't more tidal turbines in UK waters at least is that subsidies they had, comparable to offshore wind, were removed by politicians. Offshore wind has therefore flourished, tidal turbines haven't - simply at that. I guess that's the problem left to resolve - would you agree ?

CHE
 
I've been working on something that could be the solution. It may seem simplistic, perhaps as though I've missed something essential, but hear me out...

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Joe
Not quite the same thing, ha, but have you seen this Joe?
 


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