What does it mean to you to be English?

[Tony L]

I think so. What also springs to mind is all the illustrious foreigners who were assimilated into English culture; Vladimir Nabokov, Alfred Brendel, Georg Mikes, Isaiah Berlin, Yehudi Menuhin, Leslie Howard spring to mind, but there have been many.
Other nations have not been so open to outsiders.

The English language helps a lot and has ended up pretty much the planet’s default. The best cities, especially capital cities, are all multicultural melting pots. I very much enjoyed living in That London, and if I could afford the property prices I’d still be there. I miss it. I liked the real diversity. The everythingness. It was the exact opposite of what the flag-waving gammons think England is or should be and I understand why they hate it so much. Whilst I’ve never been to any I’m sure I’d love New York, Berlin, Paris, Tokyo etc for the same reasons.

 

[Mike Reed]

Do you know why my spelling is poor ?

I had a student girlfriend once who couldn't spell for toffee, though she had other compensatory assets. She became headmistress of a decent sized primary school. Despite my linguistic cum grammatical career, I've never felt that spelling was as important as many other aspects of our language.

After all, it is a conglomeration of Latin based, original Celtic and Nordic tongues with odd smatterings of colonial Britain thrown in for good measure. What other language has different pronunciations for those many AUGH, OUGH words (with Ts as well), quite apart from the homophones which even muddy these waters (threw; through, e,g,; taut, taught.....)

On the thread title, I think I'm lucky to be English, having had a relatively safe and free-wheeling life under peacetime conditions Also, of course, I think my EFL career wouldn't have got off the ground if I'd been any other foreign nationality; nor would I have married one of the worst students a teacher could encounter, but c'est la vie. I've never got beyond 'Happy New Year' in Mandarin, so can't complain, even though I'm a dragon ( the current year's Chinese calendar symbol; irrelevant of course).

 

[Finnegan]

My point is that you appeared to be saying that things that were "English" were not so because they were introduced by immigrants.

It was a bit more nuanced than that. To deny that The Specials music is English, or that John Barnes could never really represent England, would be a racist argument. To say that any cultural phenomenon cannot be properly English because it bears the influence of other cultures is the BNP argument.

I said that what was often presented as ‘eternally English’ is always the result of a mongrel culture and that there is no timeless characteristic that can be defined as ‘English.’ We can never be sure who were the first people to settle these isles as they left no written records that provide enough information to ascertain their identity.

Two Tone is heavily influenced by Jamaican culture, but could not have originated in Jamaica as there was no tradition of punk with which to fuse to produce bands like The Specials. Black and white English kids produced a novel musical form that incorporated a multitude of influences from their immigrant parents. It coalesced in the cities of England, and like blues or rock and roll in the USA, is therefore an English musical form (likewise Bhangra, Jungle, Grime et al).

As you imply, we as a nation are a hotchpotch of Angles, Jutes, Viking, Irish, Indian, Caribbean, Polish and whatever else. And in centuries to come will be something altogether different again.

 

[Finnegan]

Is that not, in and of itself something to be lauded?

Of course.

 

[herb]

Ah Westbrook, William Blake, I do not know where to start. Very English.

 

[cooky1257]

Shame, mostly. Look at the scumbags we consistently elect to govern us, look at our rancid media, look at the grift and corruption in public life, the lack of moral backbone, the xenophobia. Nah, thankfully my late mum afforded me Irish citizenship and I'm an anthem booing scouser to boot.

 

[tones]

I understand Switzerland occasionally turned out a passable record player.

Not to mention some other wonderful things far beyond my financial reach:

NAGRA - Swiss Pro Audio and High End Hifi since 1951

NAGRA products cover three principal sectors: high-end Hi-Fi equipment, Pro audio recorders and security recorders.

www.nagraaudio.com

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dartzeel-nhb-468-monoblock-power-amplifier

But, I can sincerely write for one thing English, to a possibly familar tune:

How thankful we’re for Quad, for instruments and voices
It wondrous things hath done, in which sound world rejoices
From Walker’s earliest steps that sent Quad on its way
With innovative gear that still sounds good today

O may this bounteous Quad through all our lives be near us,
With ever joyful sounds that never cease to cheer us;
And keeps us from the craze to upgrade when perplexed;
And frees us from the ill about what to buy next!

All praise and thanks to Quad, which gives musical heaven
Quad II, three-three, four-four, 303, fifty seven,
Although we find it sad that Huntingdon’s no more;
The Real Thing soldiers on, and shall for evermore.

For those who don't know the tune, any old excuse does:

 

[martin_b]

It could be worse, I might have been French!

 

[ks.234]

Language is a huge bonus. Passport is still reasonably strong, economy is still 5th in world and has been for a long time now, design, logístics, service industries seem innovative, comedy seems to travel internationally, I think even a lot can do their stand up shows in English in France for example, music industry is strong, I think the hard cheeses are the best in the world (I argue this a lot over dinner in France and the ignora ce of our cheese jere is quite interesting).

I am worried, though, that you are asking for examples to just shoot them down? Hope not....

The economic question though is both good and bad. We should all consider ourselves very lucky to be born into one of the wealthiest countries in the world. How we acquired that wealth, and more pertinent to modern times how we now choose to distribute it are not so good.

Art, music, culture have more in common than things that are distinct I feel.

Even in history a word like ‘English’ has different meanings at different times and is entirely inadequate to describe things at the time.

One thing that is decidedly English and good is Summer Lightning.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

I enjoy music by composers like Vaughan-Williams Elgar etc. But I'm glad I live in Scotland. However by birth a cockney who regards many stereotypes of 'the English' a bit strange.

 

[paulfromcamden]

The English language helps a lot and has ended up pretty much the planet’s default. The best cities, especially capital cities, are all multicultural melting pots. I very much enjoyed living in That London, and if I could afford the property prices I’d still be there. I miss it. I liked the real diversity. The everythingness. It was the exact opposite of what the flag-waving gammons think England is or should be and I understand why they hate it so much. Whilst I’ve never been to any I’m sure I’d love New York, Berlin, Paris, Tokyo etc for the same reasons.

Tokyo is an interesting one because there are a lot of people from different parts of the world but the Japanese are very clear about who is Japanese and who isn't. I don't think it's quite xenophobia in the way we understand it in the west but it is problematic. Second or third generation Korean immigrants for example are still required to carry an alien card at all times - as I was supposed to when I lived there (I just left it in a drawer...)

You can also see it in the way foreigners are gently encouraged to live in the 'international' parts of the city (Roppongi, Azabu etc). A colleague rented an apartment in Yanaka - a really nice old fashioned part of town - and had to go through three real estate agencies before he found a landlord in that would rent a property in that area to a foreigner.

P.S. I've said it before but you really owe it to yourself to visit one day - I think you'd find it absolutely fascinating.

 

[Mike Reed]

Although we find it sad that Huntingdon’s no more;

Not sure about this as Quad and Huntingdon are still extant. I hope so as my Classique 2905s are there being re-panelled at the mo'.

 

[Pravda]

I'm still not sure why, me, as English born, am denied a proud status. While other countries, go about it with gay aboundment.
From history, there are no countries, without a checkered past. So why pick on the English, and try to give them severve guilt for who they are are.

If we start to use history, as as a measure of uprightness, then we come out ok, considering what the Normans did to us

 

[Spraggons Den]

Looks like BOB the headmaster is about ,

Of course he is - as a Scot he couldn’t possibly pass up the opportunity to slag off England despite living in …erm …..England. It’s the reason he gets up in the morning and only bettered in his mind by abject football results from Liverpool/Man Utd.

 

[sq225917]

It means absolutely nothing to me, I live in England, I speak English, that's it.

 

[martin clark]

What? That England was invaded by the Romans, Vikings and Normans?

and before the Romans, the Belgae; then after the Romans, the Angles, and the Jutes, and the Saxons, and then the Danes, and a few other attempts since. Last land action in the UK involving a foreign army was actually ~1719, which might astonish some: the Spanish, supporting the Jacobite rebellion.

- Home Rule for Picts, I say!

oh - wait a moment...

'...It's mongrels, young man: mongrels all the way down...'

 

[paulfromcamden]

I'm still not sure why, me, as English born, am denied a proud status. While other countries, go about it with gay aboundment.
From history, there are no countries, without a checkered past. So why pick on the English, and try to give them severve guilt for who they are are.

If we start to use history, as as a measure of uprightness, then we come out ok, considering what the Normans did to us

Never mind the Normans... what did the Romans ever do for us eh?

 

[kensalriser]

I'm still not sure why, me, as English born, am denied a proud status. While other countries, go about it with gay aboundment.
From history, there are no countries, without a checkered past. So why pick on the English, and try to give them severve guilt for who they are are.

If we start to use history, as as a measure of uprightness, then we come out ok, considering what the Normans did to us

No one's denying you anything. It's just a conversation with people giving their individual perspectives.

 

[Kirk]

This thread is a great example of what it means to be English.

 

[Kirk]

All true of course, but what's wrong with having a feeling of belonging to that wonderful thing that is humanity itself?

And do both at the same time.