What does it mean to you to be English?

[Seeker_UK]

Same goes for Chicken Tikka Masala, this being the English (if not British) national dish despite being invented in "Indian" (usually Pakistani, but there you are) restaurants sometime in the 70s depending on who you believe.

I thought it was Bangladeshi in origin, given most "Indian" restaurants in the UK up until the late 80s were mostly owned and run by Bangladeshis.

 

[Bob McC]

Language is a huge bonus. Passport is still reasonably strong, economy is still 5th in world and has been for a long time now, design, logístics, service industries seem innovative, comedy seems to travel internationally, I think even a lot can do their stand up shows in English in France for example, music industry is strong, I think the hard cheeses are the best in the world (I argue this a lot over dinner in France and the ignora ce of our cheese jere is quite interesting).

I am worried, though, that you are asking for examples to just shoot them down? Hope not....

Happy to shoot down spurious examples.
Passport not English, economy not English.
This thread is not about Britain or the U.K. it is about England.

 

[stevec67]

I thought it was Bangladeshi in origin, given most "Indian" restaurants in the UK up until the late 80s were mostly owned and run by Bangladeshis.

A reasonable supposition, but go to Bangladesh (or even anywhere on the subcontinent) and you won't find anything like CTM being made.
The story goes that sometime in the 70s one restaurant or another, depending upon who you ask this was in London, Glasgow, Bradford, Leicester, Birmingham, etc, served someone a Chicken Tikka (which is a grilled, spiced piece of chicken) and rice. Both well known traditional dishes. When it arrived at the table the guy looked at it askance and said "where's the sauce? I like my curry with curry sauce, this is no good". It went back to the kitchen where the chef mixed up a tin of Campbell's tomato soup, some evaporated milk, and some curry paste, to make a creamy curry sauce, which he duly poured over the dish and had served. How did the customer like it? "Marvellous, this is more like it, delicious, great stuff." So the chef added "masala", which I think just means "mixed", offered it on the menu and CTM was born. Years later it is still a resto and takeaway favourite, invented in Britain, somewhere, by Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi people. Rather like the "Indian" food knocked up in Britain in the 70s, where had sultanas in it, sliced apple on the side, and all sorts.

Edit - "masala" means "spices" in Hindi, "sauce" in Urdu, and is used to describe any mixture of spices, eg "garam masala" is "hot spices" and consists of course of a blend of a number of spices.

 

[Seeker_UK]

A reasonable supposition, but go to Bangladesh (or even anywhere on the subcontinent) and you won't find anything like CTM being made.
The story goes that sometime in the 70s one restaurant or another, depending upon who you ask this was in London, Glasgow, Bradford, Leicester, Birmingham, etc, served someone a Chicken Tikka (which is a grilled, spiced piece of chicken) and rice. Both well known traditional dishes. When it arrived at the table the guy looked at it askance and said "where's the sauce? I like my curry with curry sauce, this is no good". It went back to the kitchen where the chef mixed up a tin of Campbell's tomato soup, some evaporated milk, and some curry paste, to make a creamy curry sauce, which he duly poured over the dish and had served. How did the customer like it? "Marvellous, this is more like it, delicious, great stuff." So the chef added "masala", which I think just means "mixed", offered it on the menu and CTM was born. Years later it is still a resto and takeaway favourite, invented in Britain, somewhere, by Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi people. Rather like the "Indian" food knocked up in Britain in the 70s, where had sultanas in it, sliced apple on the side, and all sorts.

FYI "masala" is Hindustani for "spices".

An interesting origin story for sure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tikka_masala#Origins but the one thing you can say is it's a British dish.

 

[Tony L]

Over the years I have known many English people who had a kind of love-hate relationship with their country, many who had decided to live abroad but for whom being "English living abroad" was a key aspect of their self-image.
What is also, in my view, very English, is that you expect and demand a better country and have no qualms about attacking what you don't like in "England." Most people from other countries tend to be more fatalistic and tolerant of injustice and corruption.

My impression is this just a positive global human characteristic. Good people have always reacted against barbarism and injustice. There are many good people; you will find them on the weekly Gaza peace marches, railing against the Tories Rwanda fascism, women facing brutal misogyny on the streets of Iran etc etc. This mindset has been everywhere forever; it ended slavery, brought human rights, workers rights, education, healthcare and has gradually started to erode the power of brutal elites. It is all still current as no battles are ever really been won, only pushed back against. It is certainly not an English thing, you will find it across the world wherever there injustice. It represents the very best of us.

As for the "sense of fair play" that has been mentioned many times on this thread, I think it is something you are told, and believe, until the age of about 12. I've lived in England for 15 year and worked for English companies for over 30 years, and I've come across few instances of "fair play" and many instances of cut-throat, no-holds-barred interpersonal dealings.

English ‘fair play’ is just a propaganda myth IMHO. Something we are collectively taught as part of the whitewash of justifying a bloody history based upon exceptionalism, monarchy, imperialism, colonialism, slavery etc. It has never existed in reality. It is a cult programming. A revisionism.

 

[JustJohn]

A few thoughts on the subject.

Boudicca and the Bede, Geoffrey Chaucer and the road to Canterbury. Roman roads, Sutton Hoo, Stonehenge. Francis Bacon and Francis Drake, Samuel Pepys and Christopher Wren. Thomases Hobbes and Paine. The streets of London and the lakes of Cumbria. Short winter days and long summer evenings. Byron and Shelley and Keats. Newton and Darwin and Hawking. Rugby union, the Trades Union Congress, doing the conga. So many Williams: Wordsworth, Blake, Wilberforce and Morris. Lark Ascending, Nimrod and the Okey Cokey. John, Paul, George and, yes, Ringo. Leather on willow, the village green, brown ale. Crick and Watson and Rosalind Franklin, frankly. Gainsborough, Turner and Banksy. M&S, the BBC, the NHS. PG Wodehouse and JG Ballard. HMS Victory, Cutty Sark, Greenwich Observatory. Florence Nightingale, Mary Seacole and the practice nurse. The National Gallery and the National Trust. Cream teas, builder’s tea, egg and chips. Yorkshire pudding, Lancashire hotpot, Somerset Brie. Jane Austen, Jane Eyre and the other Brontes. George Eliot, George Orwell and the George on Borough High Street. The Battle of Britain, the Battle of Cable Street. The primacy of Parliament. Revolutions: agricultural, industrial, Glorious. Sir this and that and a bit of the other. Bawdiness, irreverence, rudeness, Carry On. Virginia Wolf, DH Lawrence, Doreen Lawrence. Eric & Ernie and Vic & Bob, Harry Hill and Primrose Hill. Kew Gardens, Magna Carta and habeas corpus. Ada Lovelace and Alan Turing. Wet bank holidays, beside the seaside beside the sea. Chaplin, Hitchcock and Powell and Pressburger. Cornwall and Northumberland. Rashford, Sancho, Saka and Arsenal FC. Alright son, ow’s yer mother and aye-up lad. William ****ing Shakespeare.

I could go on and on.

I’m proud to be English, to be British, to be European, a world citizen. We are a great nation. Our history and achievements are the envy of many, and I inherit that gladly. But this is not mere nostalgic naivety. For we are not perfect. Far from it. Our history is glorious and ignominious. Our political institutions pioneering and now moribund. Our society blessed and cursed. We are good and we are bad. I think we need to inhabit the good more while squaring up to the bad. Take responsibility and do our best to ensure that what is to come is better than what has just gone. Like the members of the National Trust who have stood up and repeatedly given two-fingers to the Tufton St bullies who would dictate how we all think and feel. That is my England.

 

[Bob McC]

A few thoughts on the subject.

Boudicca and the Bede, Geoffrey Chaucer and the road to Canterbury. Roman roads, Sutton Hoo, Stonehenge. Francis Bacon and Francis Drake, Samuel Pepys and Christopher Wren. Thomases Hobbes and Paine. The streets of London and the lakes of Cumbria. Short winter days and long summer evenings. Byron and Shelley and Keats. Newton and Darwin and Hawking. Rugby union, the Trades Union Congress, doing the conga. So many Williams: Wordsworth, Blake, Wilberforce and Morris. Lark Ascending, Nimrod and the Okey Cokey. John, Paul, George and, yes, Ringo. Leather on willow, the village green, brown ale. Crick and Watson and Rosalind Franklin, frankly. Gainsborough, Turner and Banksy. M&S, the BBC, the NHS. PG Wodehouse and JG Ballard. HMS Victory, Cutty Sark, Greenwich Observatory. Florence Nightingale, Mary Seacole and the practice nurse. The National Gallery and the National Trust. Cream teas, builder’s tea, egg and chips. Yorkshire pudding, Lancashire hotpot, Somerset Brie. Jane Austen, Jane Eyre and the other Brontes. George Eliot, George Orwell and the George on Borough High Street. The Battle of Britain, the Battle of Cable Street. The primacy of Parliament. Revolutions: agricultural, industrial, Glorious. Sir this and that and a bit of the other. Bawdiness, irreverence, rudeness, Carry On. Virginia Wolf, DH Lawrence, Doreen Lawrence. Eric & Ernie and Vic & Bob, Harry Hill and Primrose Hill. Kew Gardens, Magna Carta and habeas corpus. Ada Lovelace and Alan Turing. Wet bank holidays, beside the seaside beside the sea. Chaplin, Hitchcock and Powell and Pressburger. Cornwall and Northumberland. Rashford, Sancho, Saka and Arsenal FC. Alright son, ow’s yer mother and aye-up lad. William ****ing Shakespeare.

I could go on and on.

I’m proud to be English, to be British, to be European, a world citizen. We are a great nation. Our history and achievements are the envy of many, and I inherit that gladly. But this is not mere nostalgic naivety. For we are not perfect. Far from it. Our history is glorious and ignominious. Our political institutions pioneering and now moribund. Our society blessed and cursed. We are good and we are bad. I think we need to inhabit the good more while squaring up to the bad. Take responsibility and do our best to ensure that what is to come is better than what has just gone. Like the members of the National Trust who have stood up and repeatedly given two-fingers to the Tufton St bullies who would dictate how we all think and feel. That is my England.

Park Life…

 

[Seeker_UK]

 

[alanbeeb]

As a Scot I'm rather depressed by the negative tone of this thread.
Every nationality in the world has cupboards full of skeletons to rake over. Some almost literally. And so they should, national self reflection is very necessary.
But I think England as a nation has huge number of things to celebrate about itself.

Take Sport, just as one example..... Most of the world's most popular sports were invented in England, possibly due to being early into the agricultural and industrial revolutions meant England in many ways invented the idea of leisure time for ordinary people. Football, Cricket, Rugby... All came from a bunch of peeps with time on their hands and a village green or spare field to bash a ball around in different ways.... And evolve rules as they went! Rather wonderful IMO.

Could go on a long time about England's high and low cultural achievements - shakespeare to the Beatles - and same in scientific and engineering worlds.

 

[gintonic]

I thought it was Bangladeshi in origin, given most "Indian" restaurants in the UK up until the late 80s were mostly owned and run by Bangladeshis.

they still are as explained to me by a visa officer when I visited Sylhet in Bangladesh.

 

[Sloop John B]

R
can you please give examples of good things that are uniquely English?

I’m afraid I’ve already said my yearly quota of positive things about English people - I am Irish after all!

.sjb

 

[Finnegan]

That's not important. Scouse (a stew made from cheap cuts of lamb and a pile of cheap and readily available vegetables) was introduced to Liverpool by Norwegian sailors but now that the Scousers have adopted it it is Liverpool through and through. Same goes for Chicken Tikka Masala, this being the English (if not British) national dish despite being invented in "Indian" (usually Pakistani, but there you are) restaurants sometime in the 70s depending on who you believe.

Not sure what your point is. Many things that originated from without these shores are now regarded as archetypal English: Punch & Judy shows on the pier, the ska of Two Tone, the House of Windsor. My point was precisely that what is presented as ‘eternally English’ (or ‘British’) is frequently the result of waves of immigration down the centuries and a product of the mongrel nation we most certainly are.

 

[Darren]

A few thoughts on the subject.

Boudicca and the Bede, Geoffrey Chaucer and the road to Canterbury. Roman roads, Sutton Hoo, Stonehenge. Francis Bacon and Francis Drake, Samuel Pepys and Christopher Wren. Thomases Hobbes and Paine. The streets of London and the lakes of Cumbria. Short winter days and long summer evenings. Byron and Shelley and Keats. Newton and Darwin and Hawking. Rugby union, the Trades Union Congress, doing the conga. So many Williams: Wordsworth, Blake, Wilberforce and Morris. Lark Ascending, Nimrod and the Okey Cokey. John, Paul, George and, yes, Ringo. Leather on willow, the village green, brown ale. Crick and Watson and Rosalind Franklin, frankly. Gainsborough, Turner and Banksy. M&S, the BBC, the NHS. PG Wodehouse and JG Ballard. HMS Victory, Cutty Sark, Greenwich Observatory. Florence Nightingale, Mary Seacole and the practice nurse. The National Gallery and the National Trust. Cream teas, builder’s tea, egg and chips. Yorkshire pudding, Lancashire hotpot, Somerset Brie. Jane Austen, Jane Eyre and the other Brontes. George Eliot, George Orwell and the George on Borough High Street. The Battle of Britain, the Battle of Cable Street. The primacy of Parliament. Revolutions: agricultural, industrial, Glorious. Sir this and that and a bit of the other. Bawdiness, irreverence, rudeness, Carry On. Virginia Wolf, DH Lawrence, Doreen Lawrence. Eric & Ernie and Vic & Bob, Harry Hill and Primrose Hill. Kew Gardens, Magna Carta and habeas corpus. Ada Lovelace and Alan Turing. Wet bank holidays, beside the seaside beside the sea. Chaplin, Hitchcock and Powell and Pressburger. Cornwall and Northumberland. Rashford, Sancho, Saka and Arsenal FC. Alright son, ow’s yer mother and aye-up lad. William ****ing Shakespeare.

I could go on and on.

I’m proud to be English, to be British, to be European, a world citizen. We are a great nation. Our history and achievements are the envy of many, and I inherit that gladly. But this is not mere nostalgic naivety. For we are not perfect. Far from it. Our history is glorious and ignominious. Our political institutions pioneering and now moribund. Our society blessed and cursed. We are good and we are bad. I think we need to inhabit the good more while squaring up to the bad. Take responsibility and do our best to ensure that what is to come is better than what has just gone. Like the members of the National Trust who have stood up and repeatedly given two-fingers to the Tufton St bullies who would dictate how we all think and feel. That is my England.

Here, here John. I'm at work and don't have time for contributions of this length. Thank you for writing it for me.
I'm amused that the Scots on here are allowed a clear sense of national identity to be proud of where as the Engish amongst us have to be ashamed/dismissive/embarrassed or just plain have no idea. Bizarre.

 

[Nick_G]

To me England just happens to be the spot on this planet where I was born. It's nothing more nor less than that.

I'm certainly NOT proud about the direction the country has been going in.

 

[Spraggons Den]

Billy Bragg version:

I was twenty one years when I wrote this song
I'm twenty two now, but I won't be for long
People ask when will you grow up to be a man
But all the girls I loved at school
Are already pushing prams
I loved you then as I love you still
Though I put you on a pedestal
They put you on the pill
I don't feel bad about letting you go
I just feel sad about letting you know
I don't want to change the world
I'm not looking for a new England
I'm just looking for another girl
I don't want to change the world
I'm not looking for a new England
I'm just looking for another girl
I loved the words you wrote to me
But that was bloody yesterday
I can't survive on what you send
Every time you need a friend
I saw two shooting stars last night
I wished on them but they were only satellites
It's wrong to wish on space hardware
I wish, I wish, I wish you'd care
I don't want to change the world
I'm not looking for a new England
I'm just looking for another girl
I don't want to change the world
I'm not looking for a new England
I'm just looking for another girl
Looking for another girl
Looking for another girl
Looking for another girl

 

[stevec67]

Not sure what your point is. Many things that originated from without these shores are now regarded as archetypal English: Punch & Judy shows on the pier, the ska of Two Tone, the House of Windsor. My point was precisely that what is presented as ‘eternally English’ (or ‘British’) is frequently the result of waves of immigration down the centuries and a product of the mongrel nation we most certainly are.

My point is that you appeared to be saying that things that were "English" were not so because they were introduced by immigrants. I'm saying "yes, we know, but now that we have adopted them they are British, regardless of their origins." CTM being a case in point, and Scouse a couple of centuries earlier. We all know that we are the result of however many tribes wandering abou tN Europe for the last 2000 years, but that's a "so what?" here. So are the Dutch, Germans, northern French, but they have their defining characteristics as we do. The fact that my DNA comes largely from Ireland is neither here nor there, because culturally I'm the result of the bit of the world where I grew up, went to school, worked, etc.

 

[gez]

It means nothing to me. I don't think of myself as English, I consider myself British. Actually I don't even consider myself solely British as half background is European (I mean apart from the European background that comes naturally from being British/English in the first place).


NB: I grew up at a time (as I'm sure many here did) where to distinguish oneself as English as opposed to British almost certainly meant you were a supporter of the National Front or other similar organisations. Hence being "English" has always had negative connotations for me.

That said, I support England in Rugby (but not in Football), at least unless they play France at which point I find my allegiance divided.

On a general level I don't believe much (if anything) positive comes from Nationalism. As far as I can see all Nationalism or being Nationalistic does is to divde humans on totally arbitary grounds.

 

[gez]

Lush green countryside, rolling hills, rain and lots of it, slate grey skies, coastal towns, traditions (Sunday roast, full English, fish n chips, sticks of rock, afternoon tea!), Ale in the winter (mainly), Cider in the summer (mainly), Royal Family, that London, accents, culture, music - so much talent for such a small island, free speech, protests, multicultural, hiking, pubs, rugby, football, cricket, queues, moaning, the union jack, Jerusalem (hymn), national anthem, stone walls, the dawn chorus...

I could go on…

There are plenty of negatives too, but we all know what they are as they're currently everywhere and I figured there’s plenty of other threads to vent about those on

Good list though.

 

[gez]

Ill educated, little England. Violent aggressive behaviour. Drinking culture. A completely irrational belief in England being the best at and deserving of everything. People who have never been out of their own backyards. A lack of respect and appreciation for others. The bloody monarchy.

With the exception of drinking culture and monarchy, the same attitudes can be found amongst a percentage of cititizens of every country on the planet. I don't agree or believe that those attitudes define the English (or British) any more than they define the Spanish, Irish, French, Germans etc.

 

[richardg]

Happy to shoot down spurious examples.
Passport not English, economy not English.
This thread is not about Britain or the U.K. it is about England.

Yes, fair enough. I'll let the passport one go. English economy may drop to 6th or 7th in the world in terms of size without Scotland Ireland and Wales..so I'm still saying that the English economy is a plus.