advertisement


WAV better than FLAC due to increased processing load on the CPU of the latter?

Your comments would appear to have some credibility if we were shouting in the wilderness like crazy folks. But with the exception of one or two PR departments keen to overstate a selling point, the idea that 'bits are bits' has been comprehensively demolished in the past three decades by practically every major manufacturer of audio equipment.

The idea that the DAC magically soaks up all the grime and washes whiter than white has proven to be a fantasy in review after review after review.

So it's not possible to take this personally: you're railing against an industry. But please, never ever liken Item Audio to AVI!

Every last swinging dick of whom have a huge vested interest in differentiating the undifferentiable. Why by a £3000 CD spinner when a cheap computer DVD ROM drive & £200 DAC will perform as well if not better.

Item, you are simply continuing a long standing and ignoble scam.


Chris
 
This is like persistent diarrhea, the nonsense just won't stop. This time the poops all over my fav hobby and its coming from a would be online cable vendor! Item, there must be something less repulsive you can do for a living.

Louballoo

Would-be online cable vendor? The slurs get ever wider of the mark . . .

If you don't like such discussion of digital audio, you'll need a pretty long neck to stick your head far enough in the sand to pretend it's not happening.

What's really weird is how little of this thread has been about the topic, and how much of it has revolved around how much some members hate that it's being discussed.

Seriously, check the CA and Asylum threads on this for a better signal-to-noise ratio if you're interested in facts, and ideas, and boring stuff like that. Don't touch that dial if you enjoy a bracing bout of mud-slinging! More coming up . . .
 
Your comments would appear to have some credibility if we were shouting in the wilderness like crazy folks. But with the exception of one or two PR departments keen to overstate a selling point, the idea that 'bits are bits' has been comprehensively demolished in the past three decades by practically every major manufacturer of audio equipment.

The idea that the DAC magically soaks up all the grime and washes whiter than white has proven to be a fantasy in review after review after review.

So it's not possible to take this personally: you're railing against an industry. But please, never ever liken Item Audio to AVI![/QUOTE]

If it looks like sh*t, smells like sh*t and feels like sh*t........

Chris
 
Every last swinging dick of whom have a huge vested interest in differentiating the undifferentiable. Why by a £3000 CD spinner when a cheap computer DVD ROM drive & £200 DAC will perform as well if not better.

Item, you are simply continuing a long standing and ignoble scam.


Chris

I've no problem if you want to buy a £200 DAC and a PC DVD-ROM. It will give you hours of fun and that's your choice. You might even want to get empirical: it gives you 80% of the fun for 20% of the price: you get to claim the economically 'correct' high ground.

But it flat out will not perform/sound like a £3000 CD player.

We have customers looking for value (in which case a bog-standard PC and cheap DAC is OK), and customers willing to spend chasing the extra 20% (in which case, it very much isn't).

Catering for the latter is no more a scam than running a good restaurant that charges £30 for lunch. As it happens, we also do sandwiches.

The beauty of the WAV v FLAC question is that it's immune to commercial considerations: if you find it makes a difference - bingo! free upgrade. If not, nothing lost. Lots of rage in the air for such a simple win-win scenario.
 
I've no problem if you want to buy a £200 DAC and a PC DVD-ROM. It will give you hours of fun and that's your choice. You might even want to get empirical: it gives you 80% of the fun for 20% of the price, and claim economic 'correctness'.

It's good value, but it flat out will not perform/sound like a £3000 CD player.

We have customers looking for value (in which case a bog-standard PC and cheap DAC is OK), and customers willing to spend chasing the extra 20% (in which case, it very much isn't).

Catering for the latter is no more a scam than running a good restaurant that charges £30 for lunch. As it happens, we also do sandwiches.

You can't help it, can you, Item?

Change your figures to 99.99% of the performance at 20% of the price & I might go along with your argument.

Catering for the people willing to chase the missing 0.01% is a perfectly honourable thing to do.

Doing it by scatter gunning foo, pseudoscience & bullshit in the hope of conning the credulous is not.

Chris
 
the idea that 'bits are bits' has been comprehensively demolished in the past three decades by practically every major manufacturer of audio equipment
But by hardly any university department or professional institution.

Do you see a pattern emerging?
 
You can't help it, can you, Item?

Change your figures to 99.99% of the performance at 20% of the price & I might go along with your argument.

Catering for the people willing to chase the missing 0.01% is a perfectly honourable thing to do.

Doing it by scatter gunning foo, pseudoscience & bullshit in the hope of conning the credulous is not.

Chris

I'm curious: how are you deriving those figures, mathematically? Seems pretty subjective . . .

It's a broad church: we have customers with partial deafness, bat-like hearing, tinnitus, teenagers, 85 year olds, etc. They're all seeking quite different things: some are looking for a particular timbral quality, others resolution; some are hung up on big dynamic range and high sensitivity; others have to have ultra low-noise presentation. They all ascribe different monetary values to chasing those objectives. There are ways to con them, and ways to encourage them to spend responsibly. That's the difference between good and bad dealers.

Pseudo-science is dressing up authentic-looking research or expert opinion to reinforce a particular prejudice. The anti-digital camp has two viewpoints that look a bit scientific:
1) Casual, or partial, measurements don't show up subtle differences that people claim to hear. Therefore, people are stupid.
2) All DACs have noise and jitter rejection/control measures that are claimed to be 100% effective by the manufacturer. Therefore they are.

Mixed up with this is a lot of totally subjective 'I can't hear it' anecdotes, which reporting is accepted one minute as 'evidence' and the next dismissed as 'irrelevant'.

The first objection gets more contentious the more it is scrutinised and takes us into the domain of extremely sophisticated equipment and techniques, as well as neuroscience. No-one here is close to being an authority. So let's not invoke 'science'.

The second objection looks more plausible, but is contradicted by what actually happens, and turns out to be a gross over-simplification promoted by DAC manufacturers.

We have grounds to be biased both ways: among others, we sell Benchmark DACs which are sold on the basis of their 'jitter and noise immunity'. We also sell transports which are sold on the basis of being influential to the performance of the system. I can tell you we make more money from DACs than computers: we (freely) help more people to build their own than ever buy from us, and that's OK.

All not terribly relevant, though: the fact is that many apparently trivial or superficially unlikely factors in the digital domain seem to matter, just as CD transport designers learned decades ago. It's all about the engineering.

No one person fully understands the whole Windows OS code base: it's grown too complicated. We've similarly grown blasé about how complex PC motherboards have become. To rule out interactions between all these components, without the necessary knowledge, really is pseudoscience. Let's politely call it 'overconfidence'.
 
...the idea that 'bits are bits' has been comprehensively demolished in the past three decades by practically every major manufacturer of audio equipment.

Yes, this is the funniest comment on the thread, from someone who accuses others of burying their heads in the sand. That bits are bits has produced a revolution. In fact, it has produced several of them. More revolutions than perhaps any previous technological development. And yet, for item, the equivalence of bits has been 'demolished'. You are in cloud cuckoo land. Bits are bits and any reply from you is proof that you consent, otherwise why bother hoping your response will be legible by the rest of us?
 
Yes, this is the funniest comment on the thread, from someone who accuses others of burying their heads in the sand. That bits are bits has produced a revolution. In fact, it has produced several of them. More revolutions than perhaps any previous technological development. And yet, for item, the equivalence of bits has been 'demolished'. You are in cloud cuckoo land. Bits are bits and any reply from you is proof that you consent, otherwise why bother hoping your response will be legible by the rest of us?
He justs wants a rise. Ignore, and he'll go away.
 
Yes, this is the funniest comment on the thread, from someone who accuses others of burying their heads in the sand. That bits are bits has produced a revolution. In fact, it has produced several of them. More revolutions than perhaps any previous technological development. And yet, for item, the equivalence of bits has been 'demolished'. You are in cloud cuckoo land. Bits are bits and any reply from you is proof that you consent, otherwise why bother hoping your response will be legible by the rest of us?

As critique goes, that's right up there with "if you were right, the internet wouldn't work." Even within CPU architecture, and especially across a network, digital transmission integrity is not a foregone conclusion. Like your phone and computer, the cohesion of the web is invisibly held together by necessarily robust error correction - that's correction of 'errors', note . . .

However, let's be charitable, put that aside for a moment, and repeat for the Nth time (apparently we do have a transmission problem) with a bit of simplifying hyperbole*: NONE* of the differences induced in DACs and amplifiers by the transport, cabling, power supplies, processor, software or hardware platform have ANYTHING* TO DO WITH THE VALUES OF ZEROS AND ONES . . . but EVERYTHING* to do with the susceptible local playback environment in which a bitstream is decoded to voltage in realtime.

If we can't get past this foundational cornerstone of digital audio, it's literally pointless typing words in these boxes, and we just should go back to our vinyl collections.
 
Holy F-ing 5hit.

You just used the "some of our best customers are deaf" line, you are Ashley James and I do claim my £5, now pay up.


No arguement from me that poor quality spdif cables can trigger effects in some dacs, as can poor quality optical cables or faulty USB cables. No issue that some dacs sound better with 'better' USB cables- I heard it for myself in Manchester. Of course it just made me think why have Arcam designed a USB dac that is so badly isolated it is affected by being plugged into the host PC.

But all of those are a million miles away from wav and flac possibly sounding any different if processed in the same way.
 
If we can't get past this foundational cornerstone of digital audio, it's literally pointless typing words in these boxes, and we just should go back to our vinyl collections.

OK, so you're saying a bit really is a bit then? Quite a retraction.
 
Holy F-ing 5hit.

You just used the "some of our best customers are deaf" line, you are Ashley James and I do claim my £5, now pay up.


No arguement from me that poor quality spdif cables can trigger effects in some dacs, as can poor quality optical cables or faulty USB cables. No issue that some dacs sound better with 'better' USB cables- I heard it for myself in Manchester. Of course it just made me think why have Arcam designed a USB dac that is so badly isolated it is affected by being plugged into the host PC.

But all of those are a million miles away from wav and flac possibly sounding any different if processed in the same way.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Not deaf, not best customers, not . . . that.

Slippery slope, sq247365 . . .
 
OK, so you're saying a bit really is a bit then? Quite a retraction.

Dear chap: What they're saying is the same as it ever was: although even the securing of bit-transmission integrity isn't trivial, and may play a modest role in this somewhere - for clarity we should jettison it from the conversation.

It is entirely taken for granted that the DAC receives the same noughts and ones that lived on the CD, just as we don't worry about whether an email arrives without corruption (oops!)

The content of a FLAC decompresses to something that - to the DAC - is almost certainly indistinguishable from a WAV.

The question is: 'to what degree has on-the-fly decompression of that file impacted on the realtime playback environment? Is the DAC a sufficiently powerful leveler to iron out 100% of the differences in rail noise and input jitter/timing errors that resulted?”
 
Dear chap: What they're saying is the same as it ever was: although even the securing of bit-transmission integrity isn't trivial, and may play a modest role in this somewhere - for clarity we should jettison it from the conversation.

It is entirely taken for granted that the DAC receives the same noughts and ones that lived on the CD, just as we don't worry about whether an email arrives without corruption (oops!)

A FLAC decompresses to something that's almost certainly indistinguishable from a WAV to the DAC.

The question is: 'to what degree has on-the-fly decompression of that file impacted on the realtime playback environment? Is the DAC a sufficiently powerful leveler to iron out 100% of the differences in rail noise and input jitter/timing errors that resulted?”

So if WAV and FLAC sound different there's something wrong with your DAC and you should get a better one?
 
So if WAV and FLAC sound different there's something wrong with your DAC and you should get a better one?

Yes. There's either something wrong with your DAC - or you/your system are very good are resolving tiny differences. Hard to rule. By all means if you want to buy a very expensive DAC, get in touch.

However, all DACs may be 'broken' in this regard. 100% fixes are rarely possible. It always makes me laugh when I read that someone thinks they have 'galvanically isolated' their DAC by using an optical cable. That's like being embraced by a sweaty man who removes one hand and says: “I'm not touching you any more”.

Certainly that's the overwhelming majority opinion among reviewers testing DACs: over and again they are 'shocked' by how the manufacturer's claims fail to translate to the real world: ie, that a cable, digital converter, or other transport factor changes the sound of a supposedly 'impervious' DAC. That's absolutely my experience.

Maybe it's the DAC's fault, maybe changing the local playback environment (ie, inserting a cheap SMPS in the signal path) tips the playing field so much the DAC can't be expected to deal with it.
 
Incidentally, sq90125, as you know it's 'all bits' to Ashley James: he's one of your lot, thanks. Perhaps even more of a digital denialist than you?!
 


advertisement


Back
Top