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WAV better than FLAC due to increased processing load on the CPU of the latter?

Linn did not map the differing rail noise and processor usage to an audible outcome. Naim, Wavelength and Empirical did. But the question is taken quite seriously by serious people.

No. That's not right. Linn found power rail noise made no difference, both in measurement and test. Gordon clearly stated he could measure no difference on the outputs so his results are inconclusive, you cannot link what people claim to hear in his tests to what he was unable to measure, that's a logical fallacy. But frankly without published peer review it's all utter bollocks anyway.

Am I to assume no Aurender will be forthcoming for test then?
 
You might well be able to produce two graphs illustrations showing a difference when playing different file types. This might interest some, but what matters is what appears on the analogue output much further down the line. Measure at that point, and invite listeners to test the audibility with some degree of statistical relevance.

Nobody bothers, because actually the proponents of these arguments know full well that none of their claims stand up to any form of scrutiny. Simple as that I'm afraid.

Granted, the analog output is what matters. Traditionally, we measure that by listening. If you're going to make analog-domain measurements they have to complete and accurate, not some flimsy frequency response chart demonstrating the 'performance' of a test tone. I would like to publish downloadable 'needledrops' demonstrating exactly these differences, but won't do so until we have invested in, and modified, a properly low-noise and accurate ADC. I actually support this more than publishing static measurements, which always leave open other issues.

The kind of measurements you're talking about are thin on the ground and don't necessarily reflect a lack of confidence on the manufacturer's part, especially when they offer a money-back guarantee or free loan.

From Polk Audio:
“While no measurement technique can fully describe the subjective sound of a loudspeaker, MLLSA and other frequency response measurements are of great help to Polk engineers in developing better sounding speakers. Only a fool would design a speaker based on measurements alone and only a total fool would design a speaker based solely on subjective listening.”
 
No. That's not right. Linn found power rail noise made no difference, both in measurement and test. Gordon clearly stated he could measure no difference on the outputs so his results are inconclusive, you cannot link what people claim to hear in his tests to what he was unable to measure, that's a logical fallacy. But frankly without published peer review it's all utter bollocks anyway.

Am I to assume no Aurender will be forthcoming for test then?

What I said is precisely right: Linn were not able to map differing processor use and rail noise to an audible outcome. Naim and others did.

WRT the Aurender: that's what the the demonstrator is for. If you don't honestly find that makes an audible difference - mindful of the egg-on-face that would ensue from saying so in public - I'll officially give up on you! Avole: you're welcome to it next.
 
No, yes respectively.

Chris

No and No in my opinion. We can measure the sound at a point in space, or two points in space but the human head and lug holes modifies the sound as it is perceived and also there are individual hearing differences.

For example, older people hear less at low and high frequencies and this will change the frequency balance of the sound heard. Then we have the ear/brain system which is known to cause differences in the perception of noise/sound.

All we can do with measurements is ensure that any particular piece of equipment is able to reproduce with reasonable accuracy, that which has been recorded.
 
What I said is precisely right: Linn were not able to map differing processor use and rail noise to an audible outcome. Naim and others did.

WRT the Aurender: that's what the the demonstrator is for. If you don't honestly find that makes an audible difference - mindful of the egg-on-face that would ensue from saying so in public - I'll officially give up on you! Avole: you're welcome to it next.
OK, I'll be over around Christmas for a few days.

Don't worry about egg on face, I'm sure it won't affect your sales :)
 
For example, older people hear less at low and high frequencies and this will change the frequency balance of the sound heard
I don't believe that's accurate - high frequencies, yes. Typically, it doesn't change much at LF.

In any case, for most people the loss of HF isn't all that problematic. You could kill everything above 10kHz and on most music it would amount to a minor loss of "sheen".
 
If you're going to make analog-domain measurements they have to complete and accurate, not some flimsy frequency response chart demonstrating the 'performance' of a test tone.
I did this yesterday.

I would like to publish downloadable 'needledrops' demonstrating exactly these differences
I can do this today. Unfortunately the gross differences are at about the 1 bit level and indistinguishable from noise. We're in the zone where clocks drifting cause bigger errors than the error we're looking for.

I can't think of a reasonable cause for FLAC to sound distinct from wav, the pattern of CPU activity and disk activity will be slightly different but why should that affect the sound? There are vastly more CPU cycles available than necessary. In a completely stripped system both file formats would show similar CPU activity, bursts of activity at the sound card buffer refill rate followed by idle loops interspersed with disk reads and associated file system activity.

Paul
 
We know they are different but the vexed question - with controversy inbuilt - is 'Do WAVs and FLACs sound different?'

The moment we move the discussion to 'do they measure differently?', we're into a whole other domain of trouble. Who's measurements? Which measurements? Where? How? With what equipment?

Especially when seeking something as subtle as this gremlin, the devil is really in the detail. A half-assed attempt at it is worse than none at all because it generates spurious, but authentic-looking, data. If issues like this could be settled with commonly available techniques, all such debates wouldn't everywhere rumble on. I would be quite surprised if all these different boxes turned out to be as identical as the measurements suggest.

With lenses, there's a similar issue: on one level, a lens is simple: all it does is bend light: it comes in one end and exits the other. What's the fuss? But there is inevitable transmission loss, expressed as Modulated Transfer Function.

Manufacturers publish MTF charts that appear to be a complete description of how that lens resolves. But . . . each manufacturer has a slightly different methodology and way of communicating the results, so it's not possible to compare a Nikon lens with a Canon one exactly. Two or three different frequencies are sampled, leaving crucial gaps unmeasured. Then, there are question marks over sample variation: the test results are only valid for that lens: the one you buy will almost certainly not give exactly the same performance. And anyway, how exactly does that squiggly line on the chart translate to actual performance? The MTF data is absolutely truthful within a tiny band of usefulness.

Other losses are measured: geometric distortion and various types of chromatic aberration are mapped very precisely, though of course with slightly incompatible measurement systems, and rarely full spectrum. With all this data, do we finally know how the lens draws a picture? No.

Because the eye/brain is sensitive to all kinds of crucial stuff they don't, won't or can't measure: rendition of defocused areas, and the transition between focus and defocused zones is critical to the 'look' of the image. Not measured. Microcontrast and macrocontrast behaviour isn't usually evident from the published data. Different lenses have different depth of field effects at the same aperture. They are differently prone to flare and ghosting: again, no measurements available. Each lens renders colours differently but again you don't find measurements for that. There may be further 'intangibles' that comprise the 'signature' or 'character' of a lens even less susceptible to description or reductive analysis.

The bottom line is you just shoot with it and check the results.

Fortunately, the results can be digitally captured 'asynchronously' and examined at leisure. Here's the final rub, though: the inspection of the lens is limited by the resolution and characteristics of the imaging system. In audio equivalence, the ear/brain is an entirely different kind of 'imager' to an ADC, and the 'experience' can't be recorded with a PET scanner and better interpretative neurology than we currently have.

Fascinating though the attempt is, there may always be a gap between what is commonly measured and what we hear. Our mind may or may not prove to be an unreliable witness.

The problem with mechanical measurements is the noise floor - what's +N? - the scope and quality of measurements made, and interpretation of the data. The problem with listening is 'reporting' and our gullibility. Nothing's perfect.

You continue to confuse the analogue and digital domains. Digital signals, when adequately designed, are immune to the kind of distortions we find in lenses. FLACs and WAVs are not like lenses. Lenses are not like digital devices.
 
Sonddek, I give up with him, it's like AVI all over again. It's just about empty promises and name recognition.
 
Sonddek, I give up with him, it's like AVI all over again. It's just about empty promises and name recognition.
Hope he never goes into politics. With a pedigree like that he'll end up being Prime Minister one day.
 
Sonddek, I give up with him, it's like AVI all over again. It's just about empty promises and name recognition.

The problem is he has a huge advantage when dealing with the technically illterate.

You can never dislodge a daft opinion held by the some of the technically illiterate using a technical argument. Just look at the MMR vaccination issue.

There is always going to be a niche for unscrupulous parasites to earn a living flogging snake oil to the credulous.

Chris
 
QUESTION: can we hear everything we can measure, and can we measure everything we can hear?

No, yes respectively.

Chris
Wrong. No and no is the correct answer.

I've said it before, it hasn't always been possible to measure everything that can be measured nowadays. I reckon some individuals have always thought everything can be measured but were proven wrong when something else came along that hadn't been measured before. You're in that camp today. Don't ask me what it is that isn't currently being measured that makes a difference because I don't know. Nobody knows. Yet.

By the way, I can't hear any difference between FLAC and WAV.
 
Wrong. No and no is the correct answer.

I've said it before, it hasn't always been possible to measure everything that can be measured nowadays. I reckon some individuals have always thought everything can be measured but were proven wrong when something else came along that hadn't been measured before. You're in that camp today. Don't ask me what it is that isn't currently being measured that makes a difference because I don't know. Nobody knows. Yet.

But how do you know that we haven't now eliminated all of the things that once couldn't be measured? How do you know the future is going to be like the past?
 
Sonddek said:
Sonddek, I give up with him, it's like AVI all over again. It's just about empty promises and name recognition.

There is always going to be a niche for unscrupulous parasites to earn a living flogging snake oil to the credulous.

You can never dislodge a daft opinion held by the some of the technically illiterate using a technical argument.

Your comments would appear to have some credibility if we were shouting in the wilderness like crazy folks. But with the exception of one or two PR departments keen to overstate a selling point, the idea that 'bits are bits' has been comprehensively demolished in the past three decades by practically every major manufacturer of audio equipment.

The idea that the DAC magically soaks up all the grime and washes whiter than white has proven to be a fantasy in review after review after review.

So it's not possible to take this personally: you're railing against an industry. But please, never ever liken Item Audio to AVI!
 
This is like persistent diarrhea, the nonsense just won't stop. This time the poops all over my fav hobby and its coming from a would be online cable vendor! Item, there must be something less repulsive you can do for a living.

Louballoo
 
How do you know the future is going to be like the past?

Because it was before. The future will probably go on being like the past, just as the past turned out when they thought it was the future. In the past. And asked the same question. Although sometimes they were wrong . . .

Aw heck, where's this going? Rumsfeld is crawling into view . . . you can't reckon with unknown unknowns. Re: WAV v FLAC, there are also some known unknowns. Which is why we can't afford to be dogmatic without risking looking like a tool later on.
 
This is like persistent diarrhea, the nonsense just won't stop. This time the poops all over my fav hobby and its coming from a would be online cable vendor! Item, there must be something less repulsive you can do for a living.

Louballoo


As has been suggested already, can we just ignore him?
 
Fact is, without item this thread would have died out long ago. So if we don't want to read his posts, why not just click on other topics.
 


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