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War declared, Israel v Palestine...

Does anyone know what the end plan is for all this?

It looks as if at minimum Israel will end up occupying Gaza and we'll be left with 2 m civilians in refugee camps.

Is there anything that will conceivably satisfy both sides?

It's unfortunate that both groups seem to feel so defined by their religions, the longer this continues the harder it becomes to achieve a functioning secular society.
All I can say at the moment is that it hasn't happened quite yet. 2m refugees on the Egypt border isn't going to be acceptable to various parties and it's still playing out I suspect. Biden's visiting personally tomorrow, but there's also Iran, China, Russia and their allies in the region.
 
The thing I don't understand about the shelling of the Gaza strip is that I thought the whole root of the problem was that both Palestanians and jews were living there in abject poverty. From the data I have seen there are over 214000 jews there and about ten times as many palestinians so surely the missile strikes must be killing Israelis as well as Palestinians? The poverty has been exacerbated by Israel semi-blockading trade from Gaza to the outside world for years, indescriminate bombing of civilian infrastructure by Israel and that has driven many in Gaza well below the proverty line. To my knowledge none of the Western powers have challenged Israel over its treatment of the residents of the Gaza strip and the truth is that as others above have said, if you continually abuse people's freedoms and persecute people into absolute penury soon enough you will reap what you sow...

I am as appalled as anyone by the brutality of Hamas attacks and such people have no place in the modern world, however such organisations only prosper in conditions of extreme poverty when the young and able bodied look for a way out of their situation. What astounds me is that none of the world's Gov'ts including the USA, Israel itself or the EU gave a monkeys about the deteriorating conditions in there for around 15 years. https://reliefweb.int/report/occupi...g-hundreds-thousands-palestinians-their-knees

Did nobody foresee this - really?

Sure Israel is now going to go in and flatten the place at great human cost which will only worsen the situation. My guess is that Iran won't stand for that so they and Hezbollah will launch an incursion into Israel which will draw the USA into the war too. We will find ourselves (as we are in Ukraine) shoring up Israel and furthermore launching airstrikes and ballistic missiles at Iran. That will inflame tensions with the Arab world generally and the whole thing will rattle on for years destabilising the global economy so it will be hard times unless you're an arms and munitions manufacturer.

All this could have been avoided though by organising for extremely wealthy Israel and other affluent nations to resettle the occupants of the Gaza strip and to force Israel to enable them with free trade and the opportunity of a better life. It would have been cheaper, cleaner and involved a lot less human cost and we wouldn't now have Islamist maniacs roaming the streets kicking off isolated terrorist incidents in Europe and the USA either.

Unfortunately the American obsession with its blind support of Israel is going to lead us into a wider coinflict rather than looking at the root causes of this and eliminating them before trouble starts...
 
I think this attack by Hamas is another part of a plan to re map the world order away from the west. Keep piling on the pressure and if the North Koreans view the west as busy with Israel and Ukraine they might fancy their chances with South Korea. I hope I'm wrong and this is coincidental timing but Iran is friends with Putin, North Korea and the Chinese. Worrying times. As long as Israel exists it will always be a flashpoint until the Palestinians get a properly set up state which the Israelies keep being allowed to veto.
 
Madrid has dismissed Israel’s claims that some members of Spain’s acting coalition government have aligned themselves “with Isis-style terrorism” by criticising Benjamin Netanyahu’s response to Hamas’s atrocities and suggesting Israeli forces are committing genocide and war crimes in the Gaza Strip.
Spain, which holds the presidency of the EU council, responded with a strongly worded statement that accused the Israeli embassy of “spreading falsehoods” about some cabinet members.

 
Did nobody foresee this - really?
There’s certainly something not quite adding up. Israel pride themselves on watertight security and Mossad are formidable operators (remember, they were able to snatch Eichmann from Argentina, and came within a whisker of nabbing Mengele too- one of the few actions of the Israelis we can applaud). It’s almost unthinkable there was such a catastrophic security breach, unprecedented in Israel’s history.
 
Sure, but the IDF haven’t been known for jumping across the border and grabbing non combatant hostages and using them as political pawns.
Ukraine hasn’t done that either

Israel kills anyone its wants to in Gaza or West Bank or in any third country. There are regular assassinations of Palestinian leaders and journalists.
Israel has no need of 'political pawns' as it already everything it wants so there is no negotiating about anything. It can impose any 'solution' it wants.
Ukraine is an independent country with an effective armed forces and supported by USA etc Hamas is a ragtag militia in a desperately poor large prison resisting the most powerful country in the region that is also supported by USA etc.
 
This could go big. Iran, Russia, China and assorted allies like NK, Latin America, India.
Not so sure - it would require coordination of a large group of countries, whose only common factor is a varying negative attitude towards the USA. In essence, they all have their own individual interests, which do not coincide (India and China, for example). And all dictators are ultimately out for their own interests - I can't help wondering whether the eastern reaches of a weakened or chaotic Russia would be fair game for China (remember, even as stalwart fellow Communists, they have fought on the Amur River).
 
The thing I don't understand about the shelling of the Gaza strip is that I thought the whole root of the problem was that both Palestanians and jews were living there in abject poverty. From the data I have seen there are over 214000 jews there and about ten times as many palestinians so surely the missile strikes must be killing Israelis as well as Palestinians?
I don't think there are any Jews in Gaza (apart from IDF incursions). Where did you see that?
 
All this could have been avoided though by organising for extremely wealthy Israel and other affluent nations to resettle the occupants of the Gaza strip and to force Israel to enable them with free trade and the opportunity of a better life. It would have been cheaper, cleaner and involved a lot less human cost and we wouldn't now have Islamist maniacs roaming the streets kicking off isolated terrorist incidents in Europe and the USA either.
Assuming people would want to leave, where would you "resettle" them to? Nobody in the region seems to want to take them. Egypt is right next door and is totally intractable on the subject. Other nations are not rushing forward with proposals either: Jordan and Lebanon are still reeling from the Syrian disaster and have enough problems without adding a new wave of refugees, plus their history with Palestinians camps is not good... You can count on Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states to not lift a finger to take in Gazan refugees. What's left? Syria, Yemen?
 
Assuming people would want to leave, where would you "resettle" them to? Nobody in the region seems to want to take them. Egypt is right next door and is totally intractable on the subject. Other nations are not rushing forward with proposals either: Jordan and Lebanon are still reeling from the Syrian disaster and have enough problems without adding a new wave of refugees, plus their history with Palestinians camps is not good... You can count on Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states to not lift a finger to take in Gazan refugees. What's left? Syria, Yemen?

Firstly the Palestinians want their own land and country, Palestine, not someone else's.
Second there are about 14.5m Palestinians. About 6.5m live in other countries: the majority in refugee conditions but not all.
All Gulf countries have very small populations and are already a minority in their own country, except Saudi of which there are only 19m and also not far off a minority. They already give $billions in aid to rebuild what Israel destroys every few years.
Yemen is very poor with enough problems of their own.
Syria was already pushed to the brink of destruction in the aftermath of the illegal war on Iraq.
 
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Actors Tilda Swinton, Steve Coogan, Miriam Margolyes, Maxine Peake and director Mike Leigh are among more than 2,000 artists who have signed an open letter calling for a ceasefire in Israel and Gaza, and accusing western governments of “not only tolerating war crimes but aiding and abetting them”.

 
Israel bombs/shells south Gaza:

Earlier Al Jazeera reported that the brunt of the overnight barrage from Israel into Gaza had been directed at Khan Younis, Rafah and Deir el-Balah in the south, and that many of those killed were reported to be families who had evacuated from Gaza City in the north, as the Israeli military had instructed them to do.

 
Interesting situation at the Frankfurt Book Fair.

Palestinian author Adania Shibli was due to be presented with an award but it has now been 'postponed'.

Now publishing companies from Muslim nations have withdrawn in protest and accused the organisers of having a pro-Israel stance.

At the end of the day it's just a book fair but it feels like an illustration of the way this conflict is driving a wedge between people.
 
Iran is not going to attack Israel. The Iranian government has enough domestic problems without giving the anti government movement another issue and opportunity to overthrow it.
 


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