Vuelta
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merlin
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I think you are reading that wrongly. The issues surrounding Wiggins TUE's and the mystery package are, as you accept, in the public domain and the latter remains unexplained.
My cycling buddies are cynical following that - no doubt based on a "no smoke without fire" attitude born of previous experience as cycling fans.
So you are simply misunderstanding a perfectly normal response.
Overreaction suggests you really want to believe. You don't want anything to threaten that belief. Nor did Lance's fans so it's understandable IMO - just as my friends' cynicism is in light of recent events.
My cycling buddies are cynical following that - no doubt based on a "no smoke without fire" attitude born of previous experience as cycling fans.
So you are simply misunderstanding a perfectly normal response.
Overreaction suggests you really want to believe. You don't want anything to threaten that belief. Nor did Lance's fans so it's understandable IMO - just as my friends' cynicism is in light of recent events.
SteveG
pfm Member
It's quite likely that have used the rules to their advantage but haven't broken any - and I suspect the same will be true for most of the cycling teams now. Sky are just under the spotlight more than the others and the majority of the whining is just sour grapes.
The Armstrong situation is of course and interesting one and was actively covered up for many years, however I'd be very surprised if that'd be possible now.
The Armstrong situation is of course and interesting one and was actively covered up for many years, however I'd be very surprised if that'd be possible now.
merlin
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Very interesting piece today in the Guardian
I trust our knowledgeable enthusiasts will be telling them to shut the **** up
I trust our knowledgeable enthusiasts will be telling them to shut the **** up
merlin
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You only really have to look at that list for the final climb up to AX3 in Le Tour.
Froome is 3rd out of 10 and all of them were massively doping. Vayer worked out that Froome averaged 450 watts for the climb - a claim that Froome denied and accepted was basically physically impossible for a clean athlete. Brailsford was dismissive but no one has ever published the power data from the SRM - even four years on....
Prior to the Tour de Suisse in 2011, Froome had never finished in the top ten of a time trial on the World Tour. In 2011 he joined Sky - the rest is history.
Prior to 2011 he was only seventh in the young riders category of the Giro and 36th overall. The following year he was caught hanging onto a motorbike on the Mortirolo having been dropped by the grupetto.
That's the science and the balance of probability
Froome is 3rd out of 10 and all of them were massively doping. Vayer worked out that Froome averaged 450 watts for the climb - a claim that Froome denied and accepted was basically physically impossible for a clean athlete. Brailsford was dismissive but no one has ever published the power data from the SRM - even four years on....
Prior to the Tour de Suisse in 2011, Froome had never finished in the top ten of a time trial on the World Tour. In 2011 he joined Sky - the rest is history.
Prior to 2011 he was only seventh in the young riders category of the Giro and 36th overall. The following year he was caught hanging onto a motorbike on the Mortirolo having been dropped by the grupetto.
That's the science and the balance of probability
You should read Fallen Angel the book about Faustino Coppi and the one about Eddie Merxc by the same author, fantastic books some of the best I've ever read certainly about sport but cyclists have always doped even the greats like those two above, Merckx was banned from the Giro for doping and in coppi's time it was legal.
Mostly they used alcohol but during merxc' time it was speed.
Tony
Mostly they used alcohol but during merxc' time it was speed.
Tony
merlin
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I train to a high standard with power and have trained others too in the Alps, Dolomites and Pyrenees over the past decade.
I therefore most likely do have superior knowledge of the science involved than you do. I had assumed you understood some of it - in particular the allegations with regards to w/kg output and Vayer's assessment. My apologies. I had realised you were one of the Sky "Nouveau Cycliste" brigade.
I undoubtedly have more manners.
Patrick Dixon
Imagineer
Very interesting piece today in the Guardian
I trust our knowledgeable enthusiasts will be telling them to shut the **** up
It does seem a little light on 'facts'. Anyone who is successful will be the subject of suspicion, particularly after Armstrong. That performances improve as humans get better at selecting and training athletes is hardly a surprise, although if the marginal gains are large, and/or the improvements sudden, that would look odd.
SteveG
pfm Member
Very interesting piece today in the Guardian
I trust our knowledgeable enthusiasts will be telling them to shut the **** up
Not that interesting an article as all it appears to do is to repeat the speculation that's in the public domain already anyway. Their being plenty of speculation, and people wanting to believe, doesn't necessarily mean anything though - that whistleblower on historic abuse of children by politicians who is himself now being prosecuted being a good example (with plenty of folks on here wanting to believe that as well).
SteveG
pfm Member
So basically what you're saying is that there is no evidence at all.
SteveG
pfm Member
The article presents nothing other than speculation because there is nothing other than speculation - other than haters like merlin who want to believe that is.
merlin
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OK Patrick, I'll put some figures out there for you and others to consider. I've already put out the times for the AX3 climb in Le Tour of 2013. You will see that all are over 20 minutes in duration and this is important. The average power output for this effort will be within a few percentage points of a rider's "Function Power Threshold" - that being the maximum wattage that said rider can maintain for 60 minutes.
Vayer calculated that Froome on that day was putting out 450 watts on average - on an HR climb at the end of a long stage.
This equated to 6.5 w/kg using accepted simulator models, even excluding the possibility of weight loss during the race and stage.
This would put the performance well into what Vayer refers to as "The Miraculous" level of human physiology. It's a level that all but disappeared following Operation Puerto.
There is a simulator that was created by Scott Richards to compare climbing velocities across both the doping era and the presumed clean era. That day, not only did Froome exceed the clean threshold by almost 5% but he also exceeded the presumed doping threshold. All other riders were below the clean threshold.
This is a physiology model that has been thoroughly tested using SRM power meters and proven to be reliable.
That day by way of example, all other riders' performances fell within the accepted bounds of human physiology. Only Froome did not - and it is not the only time this has happened. His time puts him high in the standings of acknowledged dopers and at a level that all but disappeared following the introduction of the biological passport.
Team Sky refused to take questions on the matter. They refused to release the power data and continue to do so to this day.
It's relatively simple physics for the minds involved and they have all come to the same conclusion.