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Vast Brexit thread merge part IV

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Asking again, anyone who has read the deal, do you have a link, please?

Beginning to wonder if anyone has read it....
 
Brian said:
Ahead of whatever happens today, for those blaming Labour for Brexit, let's just just note down the facts.

Brexit is a Tory project, not a Labour one. The Brexit enablers are the tory MPs put in Parliament by those who, by their vote in 2010, 2015 and 2017, helped enable a tory govt.

Don't forget, a referendum on EU membership was in the Tory manifesto in 2015. Helping enable a tory majority in that election was a vote for the referendum to happen, opening the door to where we are today. Brexit enablers are also those people who voted leave in that referendum.

As an added bonus, these people who helped enable brexit set in motion a 9 year savage attack on public services never before seen in this country. As a final kicker, these people will help enable the break up of the UK, which is likely to happen in the next few years.

So, well done to all those people. You've done a brilliant job of completely screwing the country.

I'm off to watch the rugby.
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So after months of telling us all that a vote for anyone other than Labour was enabling Brexit, now the Labour Party is going to slip Boris’s bill through on the nod (I might change my opinion on that if those who vote in favour face proper sanctions, withdrawal of the whip, expulsion from the party etc). Otherwise everything I have come to suspect about the Magic Grandad being a Lexity crock of crud will be confirmed.

SteveS1 said:
Off to watch the rugby too. At the end of all that Brian, this vote is not only a vote for a deal that is worse than one they rejected. It's also widely seen as a vote to help Boris win a GE. I am stunned that any Labour MP, or many of any other stripe for that matter, could possibly vote for that.
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Exactly. The Labour Party appears to be broken.
 
HarryB said:
Good to know that another of the vertically challenged ERG tossers has been won over. Noisy shortarse Corporal Francois is waving the white flag and voting for a deal that’s crappier than the deal that had him raging a few months ago. What a classy bloke.
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I’m pretty sure that he and the other Hard Weebles like Potato Bridgen, believe they can still trigger a no deal exit further out in the negotiation process.
 
richgilb said:
Asking again, anyone who has read the deal, do you have a link, please?

Beginning to wonder if anyone has read it....
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Couldn’t agree more. Last night Stephen Barclay was asked as to why the economic impact analysis of the deal on the UK had not been published and he replied that it had only been 2 days since the deal was struck.... yet today parliament is expected to vote on it when a lot of them won’t have seen the detail and/or had time to analyse it. The biggest political decision in decades is being made by people with little knowledge of what it really means. You could not make this up! It’s a disgrace and embarrassing frankly,
 
When challenged on why the government haven’t released any analysis of the impact of the new deal, Brexit Secretary Stephen Barclay replied, “These go to eleven”.
 
lordsummit said:
So after months of telling us all that a vote for anyone other than Labour was enabling Brexit, now the Labour Party is going to slip Boris’s bill through on the nod (I might change my opinion on that if those who vote in favour face proper sanctions, withdrawal of the whip, expulsion from the party etc). Otherwise everything I have come to suspect about the Magic Grandad being a Lexity crock of crud will be confirmed.



Exactly. The Labour Party appears to be broken.
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Difficult to know where to start with this as it reminds me of one of the many vox l pop rants I’ve seen on TV over the past few years.

You’ll be familiar with the scenario; reporter wanders round a market and speaks to prejudiced and badly informed people who spout absolute crap.

But never mind that scenario, I’ll deal with your obviously rapier-like assessment of what’s going on.

1. The number of Tories voting for this deal will be hundreds. Many of them have previously voted against a deal that was better. These people are attempting to enable Brexit in huge numbers.

2. The number of Labour MPs who will vote for the deal will be small. I’m guessing half a dozen at the most but let’s be generous and say ten. These people are a disgrace to the Labour Party who have spent days whipping to ensure this deal is defeated.

3. Because of the democratic ‘bottom up’ processes within the Labour Party, it’s inevitable that those who have defied the Labour whip will be dealt with. I expect many to be deselected.

They are the facts. Your version bears no resemblance to any reality that I can see.

Glad to help you out. Do I get another thread ban yet as you’ve previously been keen to do that to me whenever I challenge nonsense you post. Or perhaps another total ban. Let me know.
 
richgilb said:
Asking again, anyone who has read the deal, do you have a link, please?

Beginning to wonder if anyone has read it....
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It am here https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/consolidated_withdrawal_agreement.pdf

It's the same as the earlier Withdrawal Agreement except for the bit about Northern Ireland.

Had this been May's deal, the ERG and Co would have declared it an act of surrender and an annexation of Northern Ireland. Had Johnson then changed it for May's original deal, the ERG and Co would have declared that a big win for Johnson.

Brexit is now a great British farce.
 
HarryB said:
Difficult to know where to start with this as it reminds me of one of the many vox l pop rants I’ve seen on TV over the past few years.

You’ll be familiar with the scenario; reporter wanders round a market and speaks to prejudiced and badly informed people who spout absolute crap.

But never mind that scenario, I’ll deal with your obviously rapier-like assessment of what’s going on.

1. The number of Tories voting for this deal will be hundreds. Many of them have previously voted against a deal that was better. These people are attempting to enable Brexit in huge numbers.

2. The number of Labour MPs who will vote for the deal will be small. I’m guessing half a dozen at the most but let’s be generous and say ten. These people are a disgrace to the Labour Party who have spent days whipping to ensure this deal is defeated.

3. Because of the democratic ‘bottom up’ processes within the Labour Party, it’s inevitable that those who have defied the Labour whip will be dealt with. I expect many to be deselected.

They are the facts. Your version bears no resemblance to any reality that I can see.

Glad to help you out. Do I get another thread ban yet as you’ve previously been keen to do that to me whenever I challenge nonsense you post. Or perhaps another total ban. Let me know.
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So why wouldn’t Corbyn say whether they would lose the whip? It’s a shame however you can’t post a reasoned reply without smugdullery.
 
lordsummit said:
So why wouldn’t Corbyn say whether they would lose the whip?
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Because he’s a good leader who prefers a softer, persuasive approach. He realises that lashing out with threats can be counter productive. A perfect example of this is the Tory rebels who have had the whip removed. Their votes are crucial today but some of them are so pissed off with the way they were treated that they will once again vote against the government.

Corbyn also knows that any Labour dissenters will be dealt with in a proper party process. I explained that earlier but you obviously either didn’t read it or you failed to understand it.

Hope that helps you further.
 
lordsummit said:
So why wouldn’t Corbyn say whether they would lose the whip? It’s a shame however you can’t post a reasoned reply without smugdullery.
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I have no idea what smugduggery is. I think my reply was reasoned, comprehensive, accurate and dismissed all of the emotive and totally inaccurate stuff you posted earlier. Is that what you didn’t like?
 
If Howey et al aren’t expelled from the party this time, it says everything about his leadership.

Please don’t underestimate your ability to appear patronising either. Corbyn has refused to say whether they would. In my opinion, for that is what it is an opinion, Corbyn is happy for them to vote with the government as he’d like to see Brexit happen. You present your opinions as facts. Why only yesterday it was six Labour MPs voting with the government. I’m filing that one with Labour being capable of winning an election. Something I’m quite sad about, but unlike some dewy eyed dreamers, realistic about their chances.
 
lordsummit said:
So after months of telling us all that a vote for anyone other than Labour was enabling Brexit, now the Labour Party is going to slip Boris’s bill through on the nod (I might change my opinion on that if those who vote in favour face proper sanctions, withdrawal of the whip, expulsion from the party etc). Otherwise everything I have come to suspect about the Magic Grandad being a Lexity crock of crud will be confirmed.



Exactly. The Labour Party appears to be broken.
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A few rebels in the party does not mean the party has enabled brexit.
 
Brian said:
A few rebels in the party does not mean the party has enabled brexit.
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If there are no Tory rebels today then BJ will probably win. As I said yesterday, remain gave up the whole landscape for the Tories to fashion their own leave by failing to engage. I think it will go down in history as a dreadful blunder.

Here's Professor Danny Dorling, to emphasise the point Brexit is a project of posh, southern England

https://twitter.com/dannydorling/status/1084739668472721409?lang=en
 
lordsummit said:
If Howey et al aren’t expelled from the party this time, it says everything about his leadership.

Please don’t underestimate your ability to appear patronising either. Corbyn has refused to say whether they would. In my opinion, for that is what it is an opinion, Corbyn is happy for them to vote with the government as he’d like to see Brexit happen. You present your opinions as facts. Why only yesterday it was six Labour MPs voting with the government. I’m filing that one with Labour being capable of winning an election. Something I’m quite sad about, but unlike some dewy eyed dreamers, realistic about their chances.
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OK I’ll try again though it really is getting tiresome as it doesn’t seem to be getting through.

1. I have no idea who Howey is.

2. As I’ve explained twice any Labour MP who defies the whip will be dealt with by a proper process. I suggest you read my earlier posts as I’m not going through it again.

3. I present facts as facts and opinions as opinions. I prefer informed opinions. My informed opinion (based on talking to a few Labour MPs I know well as reading a lot of stuff online is that there’ll be about half a dozen Labour MPs who defy the whip. I stated that yesterday as an informed opinion (I suggest you check) and I’m happy to stick with that informed opinion.

4. Your ad hominem attack on me accusing me of being patronising is commensurate with your previous actions towards me.

Hope that clears it up as multi-tasking is not my forte according to the missus and I’m trying to watch the rugby, keep abreast of the commons action and reply to you.
 
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