Vast Brexit thread merge part IV

[thebigfredc]

Jack does like to spray the terms racist and nationalist about when referring to leavers.

I am not sure when being a nationalist became a crime. I am certain that for as long humans are organised into countries, then there we will be nationalists. Jack seems to have a real downer on it though and I agree btw that there are many inherent disadvantages to the nation-state.

I have queried his frequent use of the term 'racist' in relation to leave voters. I mentioned that European countries are less diverse than the UK in the racial composition of their populations with the possible exceptions of a Sweden, Holland and France. So if a white British racist were to have cast his vote in the 2017 referendum based on the physical differences of the UK population compared with EU population - he/she would have voted to Remain on the basis that the denizens of the EU were more white as a percentage of the population than the UK.

Perhaps he means cultural difference or maybe xenophobic. I think we can all agree that there were large groups of Bulgarian racists at last nights football match with England.

Ray

 

[rbrown]

)
Let's hope people who are paid to do detective work are a lot better at it than rbrown and others here. In particular, let's hope people who do real detective work with facts.

I hope so too. I do my detective work for free.

 

[matthewr]

I mentioned that European countries are less diverse than the UK in the racial composition of their populations with the possible exceptions of a Sweden, Holland and France. So if a white British racist were to have cast his vote in the 2017 referendum based on the physical differences of the UK population compared with EU population - he/she would have voted to Remain on the basis that the denizens of the EU were more white as a percentage of the population than the UK.

This is the worst hot take ever.

 

[jackbarron]

I have queried his frequent use of the term 'racist' in relation to leave voters. I mentioned that European countries are less diverse than the UK in the racial composition of their populations with the possible exceptions of a Sweden, Holland and France. So if a white British racist were to have cast his vote in the 2017 referendum based on the physical differences of the UK population compared with EU population - he/she would have voted to Remain on the basis that the denizens of the EU were more white as a percentage of the population than the UK.

Perhaps he means cultural difference or maybe xenophobic. I think we can all agree that there were large groups of Bulgarian racists at last nights football match with England.

Ray

Here is one definition of race from the dictionary:

"A group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group: we Scots were a bloodthirsty race then."

It is pretty obvious what I mean when I call some Leavers racist. That's exactly what they are.

Jack

 

[Tony L]

I am not sure when being a nationalist became a crime. I am certain that for as long humans are organised into countries, then there we will be nationalists.

Nationalism: Nazi party, NF, BNP, Front National, EDL, Britain First, UKIP, Brexit Party etc etc. It may not be illegal, but if one wants to look like a low-IQ racist piece of shit it’s a damn good start!

 

[thebigfredc]

I have never thought of the Scottish people as being a different race from me but I am obviously super-relaxed and well-informed about such things. I have a lot of cousins in Aberdeen and there are some cultural differences (they say fit-like instead of what, for instance) but a different race?

 

[thebigfredc]

Nationalism: Nazi party, NF, BNP, Front National, EDL, Britain First, UKIP, Brexit Party etc etc. It may not be illegal, but if one wants to look like a low-IQ racist piece of shit it’s a damn good start!

I hear the word on the BBC news all the time i.e. Welsh nationalists or Scottish National(ist) Party

 

[Steven Toy]

Yes this is a good point.

I am not sure when being a nationalist became a crime. I am certain that for as long humans are organised into countries, then there we will be nationalists. Jack seems to have a real downer on it though and I agree btw that there are many inherent disadvantages to the nation-state.

I have queried his use of the term 'racism' in relation to leave voters. I have mentioned that European countries are less diverse than the UK in the racial composition of their populations with the possible exceptions of a Sweden, Holland and France. So if a white British racist were to have cast his vote in the 2017 referendum based on the physical differences of the UK population compared with EU population - he/she would have voted to Remain on the basis that the denizens of the EU were more white as a percentage of the population than the UK.

Perhaps he means cultural difference or maybe xenophobic.

Ray

The problem with nation states as absolute units of sovereignty is they tend to go to war with each other or form alliances which then go to war with other alliances. If you think the current European map (of institutions) looks complicated, try the pre-WW1 map of alliances. The allied countries weren't even joined up with each other in some cases!

This kind of geopolitics was, I suppose, ok in the days of muskets, horses and brightly-coloured uniforms but swap them for machine guns, artillery that can fire from a hundred miles away, tanks, planes, rockets, nukes and camouflage and the nation state sitting on the top of the administrative pile has had its day if we don't want to be blowing ourselves to smithereens.

Some of us realised this mid-way through the 20th Century. Other deluded souls cling on to the old order to this day.

I identify with those who believe in labour, capital, goods and services freely crossing borders instead of soldiers and tanks.

And no, you can't separate out the politics from the economics, unless, of course, you think a race to the bottom on worker, consumer and environmental protections is a good thing.

 

[eisenach]

I am not sure when being a nationalist became a crime. I am certain that for as long humans are organised into countries, then there we will be nationalists. Jack seems to have a real downer on it though and I agree btw that there are many inherent disadvantages to the nation-state.

John le Carré was interesting on the difference between "nationalism" and "patriotism":

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/enter...ohn-le-carr-on-politics-and-his-new-spy-novel

Edit: Unfortunately the link doesn't give the full version of the interview I heard on "Today" yesterday, and his comments on nationalism and patriotism are missing. No doubt available on "Sounds". You can guess what he said, though.

Found the article (though the media clip is the same as before): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50012504

In a nutshell: "He talked about love of country and his despair at what he considers narrow nationalism - "quite different from patriotism. For nationalism you need enemies."

 

[eisenach]

A 35 minute Podcast version of the interview: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07qzltx

 

[Colin Barron]

The smiles on Barnier and the EU team are a worry. It is the smile that says we will continue with the billion a month EU subsidy and have full ECJ control. I could be wrong but the brexit MEPs may be redeployed after the next election in Westminster.

 

[HairyHaggis]

The smiles on Barnier and the EU team are a worry. It is the smile that says we will continue with the billion a month EU subsidy and have full ECJ control. I could be wrong but the brexit MEPs may be redeployed after the next election in Westminster.

don't despair chipmonk, you need to keep the faith. remember the mantra "we hold all the cards", "it'll be the easiest deal in history"...blah blah

 

[kendo]

The smiles on Barnier and the EU team are a worry. It is the smile that says we will continue with the billion a month EU subsidy and have full ECJ control. I could be wrong but the brexit MEPs may be redeployed after the next election in Westminster.

"...when you're smiling, the whole world smiles with you..."

 

[richardg]

Jack does like to spray the terms racist and nationalist about when referring to leavers.

If you can be arsed to trawl back, I can't, but Jack was a brexiteer until the 11th hour. I think it was mainly a socialist stance of protecting workers' rights. I'm not sure, though. Jack, what was your pro-brexit stance again? Eventually, he felt that brexit was too racist for him, so he jumped ship and started slinging mud the other way. It's a complicated world we live in.

But anyway, if I am right, and it was about protecting workers' rights from them foreigners.....where does that sit in the non-civic-nationalists' agenda, please? Somewhere at the forefront, I believe?

Sorry if I got it wrong, Jack, I don't think you were a racist!

 

[thebigfredc]

Nationalism: Nazi party, NF, BNP, Front National, EDL, Britain First, UKIP, Brexit Party etc etc. It may not be illegal, but if one wants to look like a low-IQ racist piece of shit it’s a damn good start!

Obviously I don't need to remind the learned folk who inhabit PF of the mutability and contested nature of language.

For example, when the King was asked about what he felt when he first saw St.Paul's Cathedral, he said it was awful which in 17th century vernacular meant he was filled with awe.

I got this from a well known dictionary: You can refer to a person's great love for their nation as nationalism.

Again I apologise for being semi-literate, English not being my first language and, even worster, an avid viewer of Dad's Army

Rhea

 

[Darmok]

Regarding the Tory taxi driver, democracy includes the right to change your mind.

I guess I am a Tory in a Michael Heseltine/Dominic Grieve/Kenneth Clarke kind of way but equally I could be a Labour man in a Keir Starmer/Yvette Cooper/Tom Watson kind of way.

So, how do you pronounce, "Scone."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/news/survey-reveals-correct-way-to-pronounce-scone/

And, do you start with the strawberry jam or the clotted cream?

This, we must know!

 

[ff1d1l]

The smiles on Barnier and the EU team are a worry. It is the smile that says we will continue with the billion a month EU subsidy and have full ECJ control. I could be wrong but the brexit MEPs may be redeployed after the next election in Westminster.

Er, yeah, what you said....quick, nurse, the screens...

 

[tones]

I am certain that for as long humans are organised into countries, then there we will be nationalists. Jack seems to have a real downer on it though and I agree btw that there are many inherent disadvantages to the nation-state.

The big problem with nation-states is endowing them with individual personalities and characteristics, as opposed to regarding them as mere administrative divisions, ruled either from here or from there. This is a relatively recent innovation in human affairs, essentially a creation of the Thirty Years' War (1618-48). This started the trend of giving us a silly song to sing (God save the King was the first national anthem, ca. mid-18th century, although things resembling the tune existed a century earlier) and a funny bit of coloured rag to salute and die for, if called upon to do so for no good reason. I personally regard it as one of mankind's worst innovations.

 

[richardg]

(sigh) Any, any evidence for this belief of yours for which which you have already apologised for but have chosen to reiterate?

https://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum...ad-merge-part-iii.232498/page-37#post-3780787

The SNP vote is made up largely of ex Labour voters. Why?
Do you seriously think* they have now become nationalist/racist?

( * I should have left it there...)

Sorry Kendo, I thought we were all just doing this:

 

[kendo]

So, how do you pronounce, "Scone."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-and-drink/news/survey-reveals-correct-way-to-pronounce-scone/

And, do you start with the strawberry jam or the clotted cream?

This, we must know!

Skon for food and Skoon for the p(a)lace