USB CABLE

[Purité Audio]

None whatsoever, and if you compared unsighted ( most effective is to use two identical dacs into a preamp) you too would quickly come to the same conclusion.
It is revelatory and then allows you to concentrate of factors that actually do improve sound quality.
Keith

 

[hc25036]

So I guess that as we are saying that we can't yet prove there is no difference between USB cables, by the same token we are not yet able to prove that there is. Hence my often pilloried statement that the 'jury is still out'!

A small injection of science if I may? It is not possible to prove ‘no difference’ between two sets of observations within the current laws of statistics. Statistics - and therefore the testing of scientific observations - can only prove that a difference of a certain size does exist to a degree of certainty (usually 95% certainty). What the result in such a case states is that ‘the observed outcome would have occurred by random chance less than 5 times if you repeated the observations 100 times’.

One reason these arguments go on is that generating such data is blooming difficult. The experiment I alluded to earlier showed that one set of MRI images gave a more accurate diagnosis just under 20% more often than another set of images that were generated with a slightly different method. The study took 6 months to design, 9 months to run and cost the thick end of $10million.

 

[gustav_errata]

A small injection of science if I may? It is not possible to prove ‘no difference’ between two sets of observations within the current laws of statistics. Statistics - and therefore the testing of scientific observations - can only prove that a difference of a certain size does exist to a degree of certainty (usually 95% certainty). What the result in such a case states is that ‘the observed outcome would have occurred by random chance less than 5 times if you repeated the observations 100 times’.

I acknowledge your greater expertise in this than mine (I regularly use frequentist and Bayesian statistics in my research, but my PhD is in a different field), but just to raise a bit of off-topic pedantry...

Isn't "no difference" the typical null hypothesis and when ‘the observed outcome would have occurred by random chance less than 5 times if you repeated the observations 100 times’ we reject the null hypothesis? It's true that this does not "prove" no difference, however practically all of modern sciences wobbles on such rejections, which are hopefully independently reproducible (which is more difficult in, say, psychology than biology). Unless it's shown not to be reproducible or some confounding factor is identified, the community just moves ahead treating it effectively as proven. With the null hypothesis of "no difference" rejected, then one can justifiably search for the source of the observed difference (or, rather, apply for funding to hire a PhD student to do it...).

In the context of the current thread, though, I agree that "prove there is no difference" between cables is just proving a negative, which cannot be done. Also "difference" needs to be clarified. Amir of ASR demonstrated through measurements that there are differences between the Wireworld USB cable and the freebie. N = 1 so it cannot be extrapolated to "all USB cables are different". Audibility is a different difference.

 

[hc25036]

Not wanting to drag this too far off topic, but my knuckles are still scarred from our company statisticians rapping them in my early days in the business while chanting ‘failing to prove a difference exists never proves that no difference exists’.

 

[sq225917]

Unless, according to some, it's a USB cable.

Keith is clearly stating he's happy to sell more expensive kit based on nebulous pride of ownership. We have no objection to the same sales pitch for any other item. The objection is to the unproven claim of usb cables sounding better. No one objects to people making fancy stuff to give you pride of ownership, we object to unproven claims of technical superiority.

Keith makes no such claims for dacs he stocks, to the contrary, he claims that they are all so close to perfect any differences are beyond audibility.

 

[mansr]

Amir of ASR demonstrated through measurements that there are differences between the Wireworld USB cable and the freebie.

How rigorous was his test protocol, though? If he recorded the DAC output using first one cable, then the other, it's possible that the difference observed was caused by something unrelated (e.g. equipment warm-up or external interference) changing between the two runs. To be more certain, he would need to switch back and forth multiple times.

 

[gustav_errata]

How rigorous was his test protocol, though? If he recorded the DAC output using first one cable, then the other, it's possible that the difference observed was caused by something unrelated (e.g. equipment warm-up or external interference) changing between the two runs. To be more certain, he would need to switch back and forth multiple times.

Yeah that's one of the biggest problems with ASR: no detailed description of methods and every indication that they are inconsistent from one review to the next. So of course they all must be taken with a grain of salt (except when being used to support one's own point, in which case they're bullet-proof).

 

[Somafunk]

The "whataboutry" is strong in this forum thread

 

[gustav_errata]

The "whataboutry" is strong in this forum thread

What about it?

 

[Octavian]

So I guess that as we are saying that we can't yet prove there is no difference between USB cables, by the same token we are not yet able to prove that there is. Hence my often pilloried statement that the 'jury is still out'!

To paraphrase:

"So I guess that as we are saying that we can't yet prove there is no little teapot orbiting the earth, by the same token we are not yet able to prove that there is. Hence my often pilloried statement that the 'jury is still out'!"

See the problem? Try it with the Flying Spaghetti Monster or pink unicorns. Always works.

 

[notevenclose]

YSo of course they all must be taken with a grain of salt (except when being used to support one's own point, in which case they're bullet-proof).

True of pretty much 99% of everything published on the internet, ever.

 

[adamdea]

Unless, according to some, it's a USB cable.

Absolutely not. if you want to buy a usb cable based on the pretty colour, the cool flat shape, its flame retardant plastic sheath, its unusual bendiness then that is absolutely fine. And no one has been suggesting otherwise.

 

[the caretaker]

There is a ‘pride of ownership’ component to any purchase choice,I simply make it clear that the more expensive dac will not improve the sound quality you experience.
Keith

Are these dacs your talking about are they similar quality to each other?

 

[Purité Audio]

In terms of sound quality, identical varying only perhaps in the choice of reconstruction filter.
Keith

 

[sq225917]

Measurement wise, yes, all perform well beyond accepted norms of audibility. Some have fancy cases, some come from China, some Holland, some from Switzerland. You pays yer money and makes yer choice.

 

[the caretaker]

Measurement wise, yes, all perform well beyond accepted norms of audibility. Some have fancy cases, some come from China, some Holland, some from Switzerland. You pays yer money and makes yer choice.

Not all dacs then? But ones with a similar price? So a £800 dac going up to £1500 dac for example? I would think these would be close' ish to each other? A £50 dac compared to a £800 dac I'm guessing there would be a greater gulf between them? Is this how it works? Or is it if a cheapish dac Topping D10 for example measures well..then it should sound the same as a expensive dac in Keith's unsighted tests?

 

[Purité Audio]

It isn’t based on price but measurement and solid engineering, look to the components measurements.
Keith

 

[Colin L]

Looking at your website out of curiosity it seems all you speakers are self powered digital devices, none of which need separate DAC’s. I kind of wonder why you bother selling them. It certainly explains your attitude to DACs generally and your aversion to cables as practically nothing you sell needs them. No pre’s or power amps etc…

 

[Purité Audio]

Speakers with everything built in simply offer better performance, something like the RME dac/adc is the contemporary equivalent of a preamp, Benchmark make the finest measuring power amp available we represent that too, I include fit for purpose cables with loudspeaker purchases.
Keith

 

[the caretaker]

Speakers with everything built in simply offer better performance, something like the RME dac/adc is the contemporary equivalent of a preamp, Benchmark make the finest measuring power amp available we represent that too, I include fit for purpose cables with loudspeaker purchases.
Keith

Credit where credit is due..your a very good salesman Keith.. for some of us cynical hifi dinosaurs, who have heard it all before.. literally! Your dogmatic blathering starts becoming a little persuasive...most sales people wax lyrical in how this bit of kit is best..blah blah..you don't do that? If it measures well then no audible difference will be heard by the guide dog! Lol...one of these days my choice will be a camper van or visit to purite audio? Of course when I turn up..ill never mention this forum..ill give you a clue though..I'm very handsome..