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Ukraine V

The thing that really baffles me is this; since the US Republicans are blocking US aid, why on earth aren't the Europeans buying from the USA the stuff that Ukraine really needs in a normal commercial transaction? I can't see the Republicans enraging their constituents by daring to prevent such substantial sales of US products.
 
^ There's a new plan now - to have three separate funding bills: one for Isreal, one for Ukraine and one for Taiwan. Apparently they all have a good chance of passing (but who knows).

Re: purchasing from the US, Europe doesn't want to rely on the US that much because of Trump. A lack of money may also be an issue.
 
^ There's a new plan now - to have three separate funding bills: one for Isreal, one for Ukraine and one for Taiwan. Apparently they all have a good chance of passing (but who knows).

Re: purchasing from the US, Europe doesn't want to rely on the US that much because of Trump. A lack of money may also be an issue.
A lack of cohesion comes into it too I would think.
 
^ There's a new plan now - to have three separate funding bills: one for Isreal, one for Ukraine and one for Taiwan. Apparently they all have a good chance of passing (but who knows).

Re: purchasing from the US, Europe doesn't want to rely on the US that much because of Trump. A lack of money may also be an issue.
I don't think there's a lack of money - after all, the EU has just pledged more:


the problem is that they don't have the hardware or (as yet) the manufacturing capacity to make the hardware Rheinmetall has just broken ground on a new facility for making artillery shells:


so actual product is still some years away. On the other hand, the USA has plentiful stocks (it helps that you're more or less perpetually at war with someone). I'm sure they can be purchased, and it doesn't even reguire any US funding. I think @Bart is correct - in a reversal of the New Testament saying, the flesh is willing but the spirit is weak.
 
6 of Top 14 Ammunition Manufacturers in the World are located in Europe, one in South Africa, one in South Korea, rest in US.
 
We also have stocks that are about to expire, requiring expensive decommission.

I suspect that sending older AMRAAM stocks for Ukrainian NASAMS launchers saved us a lot of money.
 
I don't think there's a lack of money - after all, the EU has just pledged more:


the problem is that they don't have the hardware or (as yet) the manufacturing capacity to make the hardware Rheinmetall has just broken ground on a new facility for making artillery shells:


so actual product is still some years away. On the other hand, the USA has plentiful stocks (it helps that you're more or less perpetually at war with someone). I'm sure they can be purchased, and it doesn't even reguire any US funding. I think @Bart is correct - in a reversal of the New Testament saying, the flesh is willing but the spirit is weak.


Politically, it's better to spend the money in Europe though.

“We must develop a genuinely European defense technological and industrial base in all interested countries, and deploy fully sovereign equipment at European level,” French President Emmanuel Macron

The US too has its supply chain issues and yes they do have stocks of some kit but they may not be useful to Ukraine. I don't really know. Maybe DimitryZ can comment as this is near his wheelhouse.
 
Politically, it's better to spend the money in Europe though.

“We must develop a genuinely European defense technological and industrial base in all interested countries, and deploy fully sovereign equipment at European level,” French President Emmanuel Macron

The US too has its supply chain issues and yes they do have stocks of some kit but they may not be useful to Ukraine. I don't really know. Maybe DimitryZ can comment as this is near his wheelhouse.
Well, I think that with political will, there's plenty of opportunities to ramp up production of basic munitions and such.

But the West has ample stocks to supply Ukraine, if it chooses to do so. There are thousands of Bradleys in US depots and hundreds of Patriot systems world wide.

It's true that ramping up production of complex systems is really hard, but honestly, we made SO much already.
 
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Article from Foreign Affairs about past war negotiations.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/talks-could-have-ended-war-ukraine

Like always Russians want peace but bloody West Countries are against.
...there was a deal on the table that would have ended the war but that the Ukrainians walked away from it because of a combination of pressure from their Western patrons and Kyiv’s own hubristic assumptions about Russian military weakness...

They are saying that US was against having Ukraine in NATO when as early as 2008 United States, Canada, Poland, Romania, the Czechs and the Baltic States, strongly supported Ukraine and Georgia becoming NATO action plan members; however, they were strongly opposed by Germany, France, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands and Belgium.

NATO: No MAP For Georgia Or Ukraine, But Alliance Vows Membership


www.rferl.org
www.rferl.org

Instead of that Germans started their Nord Stream project weakening position of Ukraine
https://carnegieeurope.eu/2022/01/26/why-germany-is-undermining-nato-unity-on-russia-pub-86279

There is a long story about collaboration Ukraine in NATO and they have received security assurances in 1994 from the United States, Russia and Britain in a exchange for removing nuclear weapons from Ukraine area what was declared again by Russia and the United States in 2009 confirming that the security assurances made in the 1994 would still be valid after 2009. Like you can see it didn't last long as in 2014 Russia took over Crimea.
www.brookings.edu

The Trilateral Process: The United States, Ukraine, Russia and Nuclear Weapons | Brookings

When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, Ukraine had the world’s third largest nuclear arsenal on its territory. When Ukrainian-Russian negotiations on removing these weapons from Ukraine appeared to break down in September 1993, the U.S. government engaged in a trilateral process with Ukraine...
www.brookings.edu
www.brookings.edu
 
They are saying that US was against having Ukraine in NATO when as early as 2008 United States, Canada, Poland, Romania, the Czechs and the Baltic States, strongly supported Ukraine and Georgia becoming NATO action plan members; however, they were strongly opposed by Germany, France, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands and Belgium.
Is there any significance in the fact that they were the 6 original members of the EEC?
 
Is there any significance in the fact that they were the 6 original members of the EEC?
Well spotted.

The thing which I can't get about UE is why they allow old top communists from East Europe countries to be MEP.
E.g. Leszek Miller and Włodzimierz Cimoszewicz were top communists and used to work for Russians and follow their command in occupied Poland , they have been trained in Russia, taking orders from Russian communists and they were in charge over the whole country in Poland before changes 1989.
After 1989 Russian gave a big loan to Polish Communist Party to make sure that will stay active after they lost they source of income. It helped them to stay in charge after 1989 as well.
I can't understand why these kind of people are allowed to be MEP ?

 
Well spotted.

The thing which I can't get about UE is why they allow old top communists from East Europe countries to be MEP.
E.g. Leszek Miller and Włodzimierz Cimoszewicz were top communists and used to work for Russians and follow their command in occupied Poland , they have been trained in Russia, taking orders from Russian communists and they were in charge over the whole country in Poland before changes 1989.
After 1989 Russian gave a big loan to Polish Communist Party to make sure that will stay active after they lost they source of income. It helped them to stay in charge after 1989 as well.
I can't understand why these kind of people are allowed to be MEP ?


It's democracy, unfortunately the Russians often seem to be one step ahead and realistic.

Sometimes wonder, given the closeness of the Brexit vote, whether Putin's keyboard warriors did enough to swing that vote.
 
Russian propaganda is clearly very effective to the point you can see the results even on this forum. The root of the West's problems was the erroneous assumption that the end of the Cold War signalled the end of the threat posed by Russia, while Russia simply continued with business as usual and has now morphed into a far greater threat than it ever was in the Soviet era.
 
It's democracy, unfortunately the Russians often seem
In almost every democracy you are disqualified from becoming an MP when you have got criminal records but even if you were active communist responsible for throwing people to a prison for no reason, stealing from citizens or you were in charge of communist's secret service killing people you are still good enough to become MEP. That's mad.
 
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Most governments make laws to legalise what suits. In the CCCP it was death and imprisonment, in the UK it's theft and embezzlement. Presently heading towards putting those away that it doesn't like.
 
Like always Russians want peace but bloody West Countries are against.
...there was a deal on the table that would have ended the war but that the Ukrainians walked away from it because of a combination of pressure from their Western patrons and Kyiv’s own hubristic assumptions about Russian military weakness...

They are saying that US was against having Ukraine in NATO when as early as 2008 United States, Canada, Poland, Romania, the Czechs and the Baltic States, strongly supported Ukraine and Georgia becoming NATO action plan members; however, they were strongly opposed by Germany, France, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands and Belgium.

NATO: No MAP For Georgia Or Ukraine, But Alliance Vows Membership


www.rferl.org
www.rferl.org

Instead of that Germans started their Nord Stream project weakening position of Ukraine
https://carnegieeurope.eu/2022/01/26/why-germany-is-undermining-nato-unity-on-russia-pub-86279

There is a long story about collaboration Ukraine in NATO and they have received security assurances in 1994 from the United States, Russia and Britain in a exchange for removing nuclear weapons from Ukraine area what was declared again by Russia and the United States in 2009 confirming that the security assurances made in the 1994 would still be valid after 2009. Like you can see it didn't last long as in 2014 Russia took over Crimea.
www.brookings.edu

The Trilateral Process: The United States, Ukraine, Russia and Nuclear Weapons | Brookings

When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, Ukraine had the world’s third largest nuclear arsenal on its territory. When Ukrainian-Russian negotiations on removing these weapons from Ukraine appeared to break down in September 1993, the U.S. government engaged in a trilateral process with Ukraine...
www.brookings.edu
www.brookings.edu


Posted the link as a backgrounder for those who might be interested. FA is generally considered a very credible source - unbiased and good on the facts. Obviously, members are free to disagree.
 


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