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Ukraine III

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ks.234 said:
If your words “I don’t think it’s even logical” in reference to my post about peace talks does not mean that it’s illogical, what does it mean?
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Come on, there are several paragraphs after that.
 
matthewr said:
My position is that there should be a ceasefire and a negotiated settlement and I am against more fighting and destruction. My point is that saying this is just saying what everyone wants (Putin and US warmongers aside) and whilst reiterating this as often as possible is a good thing it doesn't bring us any closer to actually ending the war.
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As this is pretty the position I’ve been arguing for some time, I presume this is must more wailing
 
ks.234 said:
As this is pretty the position I’ve been arguing for some time, I presume this is more wailing
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But this is the mainstream position both on pfm and in the wider world. So let me ask it another way -- what is it that you find wrong in other people's positions?
 
matthewr said:
But this is the mainstream position both on pfm and in the wider world. So let me ask it another way -- what is it that you find wrong in other people's positions?
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No. As you have just agreed with my position, why have you been arguing against it to the extent of resorting to cheap insult?
 
matthewr said:
I thought your post was unfounded, paranoid and frankly ridiculous. So a laughed at it in internet speak.
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Except that you did resort to cheap insult, despite later agreeing with my position. Which makes every response to me unfounded and illogical, You very clearly have an agenda that has nothing to do with a rational discussion.
 
ks.234 said:
No. As you have just agreed with my position, why have you been arguing against it to the extent of resorting to cheap insult?
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ks.234 said:
Except that you did resort to cheap insult, despite later agreeing with my position. You very clearly have an agenda that has nothing to do with a rational discussion.
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All I can say is you have me completely wrong.
 
PsB said:
I didn't say that. Read the whole post, not just the first few words.
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Have read the rest of your post but don’t not see how it relates to your stated starting point which was, I presume, to demonstrate an illogicality.

If your starting point and the rest of your post were not connected, I’m not sure what the point of the starting point was.

If you want me to go into the veracity of the rest of the post, that would take us into wider causes and effects of aspects of WW2 and not be very relevant to this thread
 
ks.234 said:
Thank you for accusing me of ‘wailing’, sets the tone and your intentions nicely
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I didn't say that. I said:

matthewr said:
By all means throw up your hands and wail at the hopelessness of it all and admit you don't have any answers
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because that is a very natural thing to do at this point and there is not much any of us can do beyond that. So by all means wail away.
 
matthewr said:
My position is that there should be a ceasefire and a negotiated settlement and I am against more fighting and destruction. My point is that saying this is just saying what everyone wants (Putin and US warmongers aside) and whilst reiterating this as often as possible is a good thing it doesn't bring us any closer to actually ending the war.

I believe there won't be a change in this until something significantly changes in the current calculus of one or other of the two sides. This is not because I am in favour of war or think the west should get involved or think Ukraine can heroically fight to victory or anything like that but because I believe Putin won't stop this until something changes to make his position change. I think that is just the reality of the situation and there is not much to be done beyond what is already being done.
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this is absolutely correct in my view.
 
If only Putin could see all these left-wingers who would normally be on the same page bickering and bitching about the war. You're almost doing his work for him. Sowing discord and chaos is his MO.
 
cooky1257 said:
Agreed, that is almost exactly my own position. Though I believe the 'window' is now before too much territory is lost and Ukraine still has sufficient armed forces to continue to inflict heavy damage on Russian forces. Negotiations usually run simultaneously /go hand in hand with war fighting.
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i didn’t really expect it to go this way, but I don’t think Ukraine is losing much territory and hasn’t for the past week or so. we may soon need to re-evaluate who is winning. I could certainly see why Zelensky might want to wait a bit longer before conceeding too much in negotiations.
 
ks.234 said:
OK, you’re not going to leave it there.

Carry on with the cheap insults then
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Again you are completely misreading my post. It was not in any sense insulting nor was it my intention for it to be so. I simply said it was understandable for people to wail at the inhumainty of the situation but that this doesn't get us very far.
 
NeilR said:
i didn’t really expect it to go this way, but I don’t think Ukraine is losing much territory and hasn’t for the past week or so. we may soon need to re-evaluate who is winning. I could certainly see why Zelensky might want to wait a bit longer before conceeding too much in negotiations.
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Yes, as is usual though, you exaggerate the enemy losses while ' underestimating' your own so I'm not certain we have a true picture at the mo'
 
matthewr said:
Again you are completely misreading my post. It was not in any sense insulting nor was it my intention for it to be so. I simply said it was understandable for people to wail at the inhumainty of the situation but that this doesn't get us very far.
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OK
 
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