Ukraine II
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TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
^ This.
Jeez, figure 2- that’s Johnson in a nutshell, all three domains.
TalYWaun
pfm Member
I find it odd that someone in the control room didn’t cut the feed as soon as she was anywhere near a camera. That she was able make the protest makes me think that at least some in the control room allowed her to.
Barrymagrec
pfm Member
I doubt the 14 hour interrogation was asking whether or not she did it, it was about who else was in on it.
They cut it quite quick. Today I read that now news feed is translated with 30 sec delay.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Demanding moral consistency and holding the US to the same standards as other nations dilutes nothing. We should defend liberal values and call out their betrayal, whenever it occurs.
In this context, I (again) recommend Masha Gessen's book, Surviving Autocracy. As well as being a penetrating analysis of the Trump years and the nature of autocracy, it offers some preliminary thoughts about how liberals and progressives ought to respond. The main idea (I think!) is to be consistent in our defence of liberal values and not twist them to suit the narrative just because "our guys" are doing bad things. Thus, although Gessen is no radical, she criticises Obama, Clinton etc. for their failure to improve the lives of ordinary Americans, thereby giving a far-right charlatan like Trump his opening.
I guess I would call myself a socialist these days (having been quite wishy-washy in my politics a few years ago) but I have relatively few quarrels with liberals as long as they are consistent. I'm afraid I don't see enough of that these days.
Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
Absolutely. Remarkably, there has been somewhat of a resurgence of Stalinism on the British left (pejoratively referred to as ‘tankies’). These are the same people who held up Assad, Gadaffi, and even Kim Jong Un as glorious anti-imperialists standing up to US aggression. It’s the ‘my enemy’s enemy is my friend’ line. It’s complete b*llshit and anyone peddling it deserves all they get.
But the witch-hunt against those elements of the left that have been consistently critical of both Russia and NATO is quite striking. You’re immediately labelled a Putin apologist. And elements of the left are capitulating, not least the Labour signatories who all withdrew their names from the statement following Starmer’s Orwellian insistence to follow the party line. It reminds me of, for example Christopher Hitchens, dropping all criticism of US foreign policy in the wake of 9/11.
sean99
pfm Member
i agree but I feel that there is a time and place for critical self examination and now is not the time because it tends to cause division and loss of focus on the problem at hand.
discussions around what NATO did wrong and the historical transgressions of our own governments should be temporarily put on hold while we deal with the present situation.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
..and to show her who’s boss.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
You can take reassurance that the transgressions are universal. US+ U.K. invade and kill huge numbers of Iraqi civilians on a bogus pretext of self defence, in much the same way Putin is doing now.
Ukrainians have seen mass slaughter at the hands of both Stalinist Russia ( 4million starved to death+ deportations) and Nazi Germany.
Putin insisting on his definition of what constitutes a country and its borders has no legitimacy. Ukraine, Russia, much of the region have had their borders moved by force for centuries. People have been wiped out or transported and their land taken.
The definition of borders is the internationally recognised one, the government is the one the inhabitants freely chose. Essentially it’s got nothing to do with Putin and he needs to have that demonstrated to him. As you say this is no time for hand wringing.
tones
Tones deaf
Slightly OT here, but one problem with Ernst Röhm and the SA was that Röhm really believed in the sozialistisch bit of the party's name (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei). Hitler, on the other hand, needed the big industrialists on side for his future plans for rearming and creating the 1000-year Reich. Röhm also had ideas about fusing the SA and the Army. So Röhm and Co. had to go.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
It’s going to get interesting when they meet up with comrades in arms from the Azov brigade then come face to face with the beheaders from Chechnya and the scared Syrians.
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
I agree moral consistency is the point and I don't see anyone not holding the US to the same standards, excepting those who never did anyway. Although Russia & Ukraine is not even a slightly nuanced situation and there is a very (very!) clear moral good and moral wrong and any hesitancy, qualification or whataboutism doesn't sit well with me.
The point of being an anti-fascist and anti-imperialist is to respond to the clear and present danger of a literal imperialist, fascist war not to remind everyone of the past US sins or get all "but her emails" about it. This is even more true when a lot of the criticism of, say, NATO echoes the propaganda and justification being used by the fascist imperial aggressors. There's nothing to keep one's powder dry for here, this is literally it.
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
I don't think I have come across a single Putin apologist and not sure they exist outside of actual pro-Putin circles. His position is not exactly a popular one!
Nor, FWIW, have I come across anyone accusing people of being Putin apologists and certainly not in an unequivocal "labelled" manner. It seems to me like people fighting imaginary demons here.
droodzilla
pfm Member
We'll have to agree to disagree, Matthew. I see very little consistent condemnation of US crimes among liberal pundits. If there were, Tony Blair would have been driven from public life years ago, and we wouldn't have to watch Alistair Campbell on breakfast TV every morning. In the US, GW Bush is treated as a respectable elder statesman. These people have the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians on their hands, yet they have faced zero consequences in the long run. Meanwhile, Assange, the man who exposed US war crimes is being deported to face trial. It stinks.
As for the timing... sure, US crimes are not the immediate priority. But, unless I'm mistaken, this is a discussion forum and no-one here has any direct influence over what happens next in Ukraine. No harm in letting the discussion range far and freely in my view. It would get pretty effin' dull if every post was simply a variation on the "Putin is a murderous authoritarian shit" theme.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Selective memory, I'm afraid, Matthew. Here's the response when I posted a perfectly reasonable (and nuanced) interview with Anatol Lieven:
https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/ukraine.263817/page-53#post-4615181
Strong implication that I'm a Putin apologist there.
The problem is not limited to this forum:
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1496917743580454914
There is a climate of intolerance around any attempt to introduce nuance or context into the discussion of this topic.
Too many so-called liberals are authoritarians at heart.
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
I would agree that people like Blair and Bush have weaseled out of responsibility for starting a major war one false pretenses and causing a major humanitarian disaster. But I am not aware of anyone who doesn't accept this in the social and media circles I move in. Although to be fair I don't watch breakfast tv and haven't heard from Alistair Campbell for over a decade.
Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
I can’t agree for two main reasons. What this argument essentially consists of is, no matter what the domestic situation, we have to “all be in it together” against a foreign threat. Now I know you’re not defending the Johnson regime, but we’re clearly not all in it together. The Tory party is awash with the cash of those oligarchs who it has now become convenient for them to demonise. This bloody war may well save Johnson’s skin re: Partygate. This government simply cannot be trusted to do the right thing over Ukraine.
It is extremely important to hold your government to account at times such as these. The Vietnam war (and I’m making no equivalence between Ukraine and Vietnam) was ended by a combination of Vietnamese resistance and a mass anti-war movement in the U.S. itself. We must hope that this same situation prevails in both Ukraine and Russia.
None of this is to dismiss or minimise the threat Putin poses. But this conflict could conceivably and terrifyingly escalate to a nuclear war in which their can be no winners. We have to be entirely vigilant in relation to imbeciles like Truss and Johnson in a situation where Putin’s finger could be hovering over the button.
I found this article from. The Washington Post quite chilling.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/15/putin-russia-nuclear-weapons-
Bart
pfm Member
As far as I know the below is a quote from Putin, if so has he not already failed to carry it out, surely quite a few countries have tried to hinder him, he doesn’t normally need too much of a sniff of hindrance to act.
I’m not saying he’s done nothing but I don’t see any of the consequences implied.
‘Whoever tries to hinder us, and even more so, to create threats to our country, to our people, should know that Russia's response will be immediate. And it will lead you to such consequences that you have never encountered in your history.’
I’m not saying he’s done nothing but I don’t see any of the consequences implied.
‘Whoever tries to hinder us, and even more so, to create threats to our country, to our people, should know that Russia's response will be immediate. And it will lead you to such consequences that you have never encountered in your history.’
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