UEFA Euros 2024

[Brian]

Strange how his name as just cropped up, but this question popped into my head when reading your post. What number then do you give to a 'playmaker' aka De Bruyne. This is the type of player England need, it works successfully with Foden at City. Anyone fancy Bellingham trying to put his foot on the ball and play this role.
You never answered, but I will assume a number 4 would be a central defensive player.

'Numbers' have changed since the advent of squad numbers/names and cashing in on shirt sales.

Back in the days of a team coming out wearing 1 to 11 and playing 4-3-3, a 4 was generally on the right of a midfield 3.
5 and 6 were at the centre of defence.
e.g.
1
2-5-6-3
4-8-11
7-9-10

I much preferred it but I'm a dinosaur like that. I still prefer divisions 1, 2, 3 and 4.

I don't see Bellingham as a De Bruyne.

 

[Weekender]

Strange how his name as just cropped up, but this question popped into my head when reading your post. What number then do you give to a 'playmaker' aka De Bruyne. This is the type of player England need, it works successfully with Foden at City. Anyone fancy Bellingham trying to put his foot on the ball and play this role.
You never answered, but I will assume a number 4 would be a central defensive player.

Oh Kevin de Bruyne. "A versatile and highly talented player, he plays mainly as a attacking or an central midfielder but can also operate in several other positions and has been used as a winger or second striker. He has even been deployed in a deeper creative midfield position and on occasion, a box-to-box role or as a false 9. He is often described by pundits as one of the best and most complete modern day advanced playmakers due to his technique, skill, athleticism, work-rate off the ball, vision, crossing accuracy, wide range of passing, and powerful long-range shooting ability with either foot."
If only.
When he came on and scored and assisted against us in January I couldn't even be angry with him. Jewel of a player. He even has a "redness indicator" so the manager can tell when it's time for him to come off.
Bellingham is not as skilled a playmaker as KdB. By a long way. If we combined Jude and Trent we'd maybe be half way there. Jude has excellent physical attributes though and can move the ball upfield well with surging runs and win back possession so suits a 6/8 role.

 

[Alex S]

Maybe an Arsenal fan can comment?

Certainly Rice was more of a threat further forward but he’s still a very good 6. England’s options in midfield are marginally better than Arsenal’s, on paper at least. I do agree with Southgate and others that Phillips is missed but it’s a bit lame to harp on about it.

 

[Woodface]

Well your posts are certainly misleading, you're saying one thing and meaning another.
I will strongly disagree with you regarding Southgate being the best manager we have had for a long time.
I have already said managers don't coach players how to kick a ball, please keep up.
You only quote half of what I said, managers must coach the tactics he wants to use and how he feels the opposition are going to play.
Please read my posts thoroughly, plus re-read your own posts before posting so there is no confusion in what you mean to say.

Ok, name a more successful recent national manager than Southgate, I cant recall one?

Managers don't really coach full stop, 'coach the tactics' doesn't make sense, did you mean teach? The modern manager probably just picks the team, international managers also have to be very astute in how they relate to their domestic counterparts. It's almost a political appointment, manager has no real sway as to who is available either.

We massively over hype the national team & then massively overreact when they don't meet our expectations. We have a squad of players who are probably not the best players in their own club & we just blame the manager because its easier.

 

[Brian]

Certainly Rice was more of a threat further forward but he’s still a very good 6. England’s options in midfield are marginally better than Arsenal’s, on paper at least. I do agree with Southgate and others that Phillips is missed but it’s a bit lame to harp on about it.

I'm not going to defend Southgate on anything, I think he is a very poor manager and I agree harping about Phillips is lame.

What I was trying to put over is Rice will be better alongside that type of player.

Southgate tries to shoehorn a bunch of media favourites into a starting XI with no consideration on how they combine and fit in the team structure. Probably because the team has no structure.

 

[Weekender]

The modern manager probably just picks the team...

That doesn't make sense.
Sure there is a range in levels of detail conveyed to the players between, for example, Pep and Ancelotti but coaching the team's tactics is a huge part of a manager's remit.

 

[Alex S]

At the risk of going round in circles, I think it’s worth shoehorning Bellingham next to Rice and think they are both intelligent enough players to make it work. Both are very tired so restricting their roles is no bad thing, given we have Foden, Palmer, Gordon, Saka further forward (Saka won’t be playing left back under Southgate).

 

[gintonic]

no press

need Ange ball

 

[Alex S]

That doesn't make sense.
Sure there is a range in levels of detail between, for example, Pep and Ancelotti but coaching the team's tactics is a huge part of a manager's remit.

A manager literally can’t pick a team unless they know and coach the tactics. Otherwise, you just get a disjointed mess of star names in the wrong position. Oh, wait.

 

[Weekender]

A manager literally can’t pick a team unless they know and coach the tactics. Otherwise, you just get a disjointed mess of star names in the wrong position. Oh, wait.

Lol

 

[oldius]

In possession, a defender augments the midfield. TTA plays this role very successfully at Liverpool.
Walker is not really used in this role at City, rather John Stones is because Walker is not as capable on the ball.

Out of possession, the RB takes a more conventional role.

My preference would be for Palmer, but I understand he generally plays on the right at Chelsea. He can do both. You could switch him for Saka and play Gordon, but the positions remain.

 

[Salamander]

Ok, name a more successful recent national manager than Southgate, I cant recall one?

Managers don't really coach full stop, 'coach the tactics' doesn't make sense, did you mean teach? The modern manager probably just picks the team, international managers also have to be very astute in how they relate to their domestic counterparts. It's almost a political appointment, manager has no real sway as to who is available either.

We massively over hype the national team & then massively overreact when they don't meet our expectations. We have a squad of players who are probably not the best players in their own club & we just blame the manager because its easier.

You are moving goalposts again, originally you said 'better', now you are saying successful, you obviously didn't read and understand my previous post about reading and re-reading. Anyway, two better managers imo, Hoddle and Venables.
Coaching and teaching is nitpicking, ok if you must teach tactics, but for me teaching is for children and I would rather have the word coach as I'm sure most players would as well.
Players of all nationalities are over-hyped imo, but you cannot get away from the fact we should have a strong team with the likes of Rice, Bellingham and Foden.
Who do you not rate in the squad of players we have taken, who are these better players in their teams you would have taken in their place.

 

[Weekender]

@oldius I'd be worried about loss of Walker's recovery pace and Trent up against the best left wingers but otherwise yes.
I'd go Gordon left and Saka/ Palmer right.

 

[Brown Bottle]

Worrying news, Foden has left the camp and returned to Manchaester, family matter apparently.

Cheers BB

 

[oldius]

@oldius I'd be worried about loss of Walker's recovery pace and Trent up against the best left wingers but otherwise yes.
I'd go Gordon left and Saka/ Palmer right.

There are always compromises. Trent was asked to do a job he isn't really asked to do at Liverpool.
Walker can't do the midfield job but is the better defender.
If Walker plays, Stones goes in to midfield.
If Trent plays, he does.

 

[oldius]

Worrying news, Foden has left the camp and returned to Manchaester, family matter apparently.

Cheers BB

Just read that.

 

[Bob McC]

Oh Kevin de Bruyne. "A versatile and highly talented player, he plays mainly as a attacking or an central midfielder but can also operate in several other positions and has been used as a winger or second striker. He has even been deployed in a deeper creative midfield position and on occasion, a box-to-box role or as a false 9. He is often described by pundits as one of the best and most complete modern day advanced playmakers due to his technique, skill, athleticism, work-rate off the ball, vision, crossing accuracy, wide range of passing, and powerful long-range shooting ability with either foot."
If only.
When he came on and scored and assisted against us in January I couldn't even be angry with him. Jewel of a player. He even has a "redness indicator" so the manager can tell when it's time for him to come off.
Bellingham is not as skilled a playmaker as KdB. By a long way. If we combined Jude and Trent we'd maybe be half way there. Jude has excellent physical attributes though and can move the ball upfield well with surging runs and win back possession so suits a 6/8 role.

What KDB has in spades that Bellingham seems to completely lack is an awareness of the space around him and his colleagues moving in it.

 

[Woodface]

That doesn't make sense.
Sure there is a range in levels of detail conveyed to the players between, for example, Pep and Ancelotti but coaching the team's tactics is a huge part of a manager's remit.

The manager has a range of duties beyond putting cones out. Obviously in the lower leagues its different. Sir Alex was hardly seen on the training ground, there's a huge team of backroom staff in any elite set up now. England is a bit different as they have a much wider remit around St Georges park etc.

 

[kensalriser]

Southgate is unarguably the second most successful England manager. That's a fact. Could he have done better? Maybe. A lot of the things he's criticised for certainly have some truth to them, although I think for many his face just doesn't fit because he's a bit dour and was never a glamour player or manager at any club, and those people would still give him pelters even if he did win something.

There's also a lot of rose-tinted vision of the past. England have never been that good since 1966, at best they're heroic losers. I'm guessing most here remember the 1970s and all the good English players of the decade: Banks, Shilton, Keegan, Worthington, Currie, Bowles, Marsh, Hudson, Bell, Brooking, Todd, George, Francis (Gerry and Trevor), Hoddle, Robson ad nauseam. Never even qualified for a single tournament that decade after the automatic qualification for the 70 World Cup.

 

[Woodface]

You are moving goalposts again, originally you said 'better', now you are saying successful, you obviously didn't read and understand my previous post about reading and re-reading. Anyway, two better managers imo, Hoddle and Venables.
Coaching and teaching is nitpicking, ok if you must teach tactics, but for me teaching is for children and I would rather have the word coach as I'm sure most players would as well.
Players of all nationalities are over-hyped imo, but you cannot get away from the fact we should have a strong team with the likes of Rice, Bellingham and Foden.
Who do you not rate in the squad of players we have taken, who are these better players in their teams you would have taken in their place.

I'm moving the goalposts? Surely better & successful are almost the same thing. Venables was barely in post for long & Hoddle, although a very gifted tactician had some odd ideas around man management; he certainly treated Beckham harshly.

You again miss my point, its not about who we did or didn't include in the squad more that we lack quality in certain areas, left back for example. Its far 'easier' for Foden to shine when he's alongside KdB, as a result we end up putting players in non-ideal positions, this is expediency rather than incompetence.