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Tweaks to NAIm CDS -Part 2- valve output stage

A

audiojoy

pfm Member
Tonight I have managed to get so much more out of the CDS.

Those of you not familiar with my tweaks please look up all my other posts for the mods in Part one - ignore all the other posts in that thread which are mostly irrelevent.

Tonight i thought i would by-pass the three stage output filters/amps. I had lying around a valve output stage which amplifies and lowers output impedence. Uses two triodes. Of course this idea is not new but i am not sure why Naim have never been interested in doing this before.

Result - felt like my chair had been pushed right up close and intimate with the musicians. That was the extent of the transparency that opened up. I am getting tired of saying this but once again there were further dramatic improvements in dynamics and now the bass had even better control presence, depth and power. Everything seemed to take on real substance. All in all about almost as dramatic as replacing all the Tantalum caps and adding the litz silver inductors (but not quite). BEST news of all, all the Naim pace rhythm and timing was still there! So it is not the output stage that determines this essential of all essential sound characteritics.

I am going to try and get photos in the next day or so if i can manage it. But be warned it is a mess that is how i tweak before i then go back to tidy up etc.



Luke
 
So, Luke, you was not going to change the original Naim sound, wasn't you? Seriously?

Why Naim has not ever been interested in that before you asked.

The late Julian Vereker said once to me that it would only bring
you the bad sides from both worlds, the transistors and the tubes to tangle with.

Oz
 
audiojoy said:
Tonight I have managed to get so much more out of the CDS.

Those of you not familiar with my tweaks please look up all my other posts for the mods in Part one - ignore all the other posts in that thread which are mostly irrelevent.

Tonight i though i would-by pass the three stage output filters/amps. I had lying around a valve output stage which amplifies and lowers output impedence. Uses two triodes. Of course this idea is not new but i am not sure why Naim havenever been interested in doing this before.

Result - felt like my chair had been pushed right up close and intimate with the musicians. That was the extent of the transparency that opened up. I am getting tired of saying this but once again there were further dramatic improvements in dynamics and now the bass had even better control presence, depth and power. Everything seemed to take on real substance. All in all about almost as dramatic as replacing all the Tantalum caps and adding the litz silver inductors (but not quite). BEST news of all, all the Naim pace rhythm and timing was still there! So it is not the output stage that determines this essential of all essential sound characteritics.

I am going to try and get photos in the next day or so if i can manage it. But be warned it is a mess that is how i tweak before i then go back to tidy up etc.



Luke
Click to expand...

Nooooooooooo......

In God's name why?

Surely a bodge too far for the poor old CDS?
 
I tried passive I/V and a pair of 6C45PI triodes for the outputstage in my diy external TDA1541S2 dac, beautiful sound but it did look a mess:D
I now use a discrete I/V and buffer stage, less mess but still sounds great

Valves can sound very good if you use the right one, things like ECC88 wasn't too my taste, the 6C45PI's sounded more solid state than valve and had plenty of drive, they demand an excellent psu though and you need to take care with layout to prevent oscillation.
I'd only use valves in a multibit dac:)
 
Robert

if you read my post carefully you will note that i have clearly iterated that the NAIM SOUND WAS NOT ALTERED AT ALL!!!, I just had more presence and realism to the musicians WITHOUT ALTERING THE NAIM SOUND. I repeat WITHOUT ALTERING THE NAIM SOUND. I repeat WITHOUT ALTERING THE NAIM SOUND. I repeat WITHOUT ALTERING THE NAIM SOUND, I repeat............

The circuit and valves i use seem to have been totally transparent to the original sound characteristics, that is NEUTRAL.
 
Luke, can you please picture which parts of the Naim sound are those you appreciate and cherish to maintain?

Oz
 
HI Linnik,

the guys who design Naim I have no doubt listen to music, because the timing, rhythm and pace are spot on. By ensuring the starting and stopping of the notes are time aligned between all the other musicians, the intended interaction between the musicians can be clearly heard. this allows you to bettter understand how the musicains intended the musical piece you sound and how it was supposed to move you. Fior example, the bassist interacts with the drummer to drive the music along in a traditional 50's jazz quartet. If the bass timing and its time relationships to the drummers playing are off, you will not get a musically cohesive picture that makes sense and is true to the tune that was intended. More often than not musicians play together to get a tune that we can emotionally connect to either to get our feet tapping or express sadness as examples. Basically when you listen to Naim you get so involved with the impact of the music on your senses you forget about the analysis of the technical details of the sound. You forget about your hifi system and just get yourself absorbed in the music. Now in my opinion there are very few companies that actually achieve this, probably counted on the nfingers of one hand only.

Now when I say get the 'note right' i mean its timing in relation to the length of the note and its decay time. Correctly timed dynamics can then alter the pitch of the note which can in effect provide accentuations to depict mood.

I believe Naim do this to the highest level,but the sounds I hear overall lack the refinement and ease that I often hear in live concerts and which audio note products produce. Also I am not convinced certainly in the case of the unmodded CDS that it is able to delineate clearly what background musicians are trying to add to the overall score. i feel it some how catches the drive and energy of the 'front men' to drive home the message at the expense of the more minor players. Tonal colourations which help give you that realistic presence in your room of the musician as a living breathing thing are very good considering it is a solid state item and is comparable with some of the better 2A3 valve amps.


I hope this helps you understand what I mean by the NAIM sound and I know for a fact that it is this emotional connection that makes people buy NAIM. Well most people not all.


Luke
 
Luke,

Don't you have to do any work?

Your tweaks do appear to be a little obsessive to the point of reaching insanity.

What other kit are you running this "CDS mutant" through.
 
Luke,

Might I suggest that you post some pictures of your work?
You might get some more of the feedback you keep requesting by doing this.

Jim.
 
Chrism, my cds is no more mutant than the Naim Units completely overhauled by all the other Tweakies. All I have done is simplified the out put stage from a mess of caps, resistors and IC's, are you surprised that transparency increased? As I have some experience in valve circuits I can tell you now that the small triodes in the buffer circuits have hardly any effect on the overall sound they are that neutral. MORE IMPORTANTLY, if you read my posts carefully you would have noticed that the NAIM sound did not change and that the output filter stage was therefore not critical in achieving the final sound. However, I must address the fact that I am insanely tweaking away here on my own without another human as control, I meant as an experimenal factor not a psychiatric doctor. O did I just partially mention what i do for a living?


Any one who wants to see the picture of my messy work please let me know and I will email them to you. I am afraid i am not quite so computer literate and was unsuccessful in understaning how to get my JPEG photos on to the site.

O yes the 'AUDIOJOY CDS' is running through the following set up -please see 'CDS tweaks 1' thread , post number 1 and all the details are there.
 
go on then - send your photos to :

whats_all_this_then (at) hotmail.com

replace the (at) with the normal @ symbol.

Jim.
 
Jimmmmmm I will send them now i hope you will be able to verify to the rest of the group what you see even if it looks a mess.


Did you get it????
 
Hi Luke,

Nothing has hit my inbox yet - I'll keep an eye out for it - hotmail can be slooooow sometimes.

Jim.
 
Well, I now have a picture of a CDS with modifications that would make it look quite at home on an extreme fetish site. :eek:

Luke, you are a bad bad man.


Of course - when I say bad, I mean it in the non-perjorative, rather impressed, "Cohonnes on that..." sense of the word bad. :D




I cannot comment on the sound it produces, but the list of modifications that Luke posted appear accurate from a cursory observation of the photo.

Jim.
 
I know it is a mess, and will gladly take any comments on the chin, but thats because i genuinely do not have time, but my enthusiasm gets the better of me. However, once it is the finished article i will go back over everything and tidy it up so there will be the cds/cdsp boxes and the valve output with its choke power supply put into a new single box (the power supply you might just be able to make out on the bottom right hand corner).

I know exactly what i am going to do next, and no its not a new clock and no its not super regulators. I have had enough experience with the former to know the effects are subtle compared to what i have achieved. I will be improving the individually regulated power supplies inside the cds with those fantastic silver litz air core chokes to get rid of all those nasties in the power supply. I will probably have to put it to the scope to see the regulation improvement to convince you guys if it works.


PS Just ordered the full pcb board kits and toroids from LES for monoblock NCC200's. I am also awaiting the arrival of the Naim Nac 62. Exciting or what. God you guys were fast those E bay boxes went like lightning, anyone got a pair for sale???
 
Luke,

No problems about the 'mess' - this is all part of development.

My comments were far more positive than I think you may have interpreted them to be.

Jim.
 
What about the rest of us seeing those photos?

Post 'em up.

Mr Tibbs

Valves in a Naim CDP - wonder what JV would make of that (best not answer that)
 
Sorry Luke I was away for awhile. I for myself can accept 100% your description of the best parts of so called Naim sound. You cannot be too much off the point, I guess.

This means, I am most interested in your efforts, too. Don't care about the mess - you propably CANNOT make 62 more messy than my famous "spaghetti-62". I can send a photo to you as change..

Can you please mail me the same pack of photos etc. to: kuvan at musiikin.com

Thanks! Oz

P.S. If you want to post up photos here, you should first have them uploaded to some server or possibly free photoserver (others can help here). And then place the photos by going "advanced" and choosing photo, then writing the full adress string between the tags.
.
 
Thanks Luke!

They look okay. You have been working hard in there!!
I mailed you some questions.

Thanks, I will mail you my spaghetti62 photo now.

Oz
 
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